Andy MacPhail - Disappointing GM

[hatepaste]

What we DO know is that nothing they have tried thus far has worked.

MSK

Agreed.

But why? Maybe they've been wining and dining players too much, and players think it is tacky.

It's really going to come down to winning. We need to prove to people that we can win and are only a player away from competing.

But we did sign a big free agent in Tejada. And that was only a few years ago. It's the Red Sox and Yankees that sign a big free agent every year. That just isn't the case for every other team. Phillies just won a world series that way. Rays were there too doing it the same way.

[MemorialStadKid]

Your right. The Orioles have never signed any FA's. Except Belle, and Alomar, and Palmiero, and on and on and on.

Jesus Christ... you went on to use two of the worst possible examples for FAs. I won't even respond to this one.

MSK

[hatepaste]

Jesus Christ... you went on to use two of the worst possible examples for FAs. I won't even respond to this one.

MSK

They were all big signings. And worst possible examples? Belle and who? Palmeiro? I think he is talking about the first time around. And Belle was an injury problem. Not much you can do there. Still don't call that a bad signing...

[Mackus]

Jesus Christ... you went on to use two of the worst possible examples for FAs. I won't even respond to this one.

MSK

How are those bad examples? Alomar was a great sign and Palmeiro was the best FA in the history of the Orioles. Belle flopped.

But you are advocating signing FAs. You can't cherry pick only ones that work out. All those FAs that end up looking stupid looked great at the time, or at least most did. They flop nearly as often as top draft picks.

So you can't say "don't sign FAs that flop like Albert Belle". That's not fair. If you want to spend the money, you have to accept the risks, and paying $12M+ a year to someone who won't play or will play terribly is certainly one of the risks.

[Satyr3206]

Jesus Christ... you went on to use two of the worst possible examples for FAs. I won't even respond to this one.

MSK

Belle was one of the most feared hitters when he signed. No one knew about Palmiero and the roids yet. And I forgot about Tejeda. The Orioles have signed FA's. You just don't want to admit that MacPhail's way might make more sense, long and short term.

[DrungoHazewood]

This "above and beyond" nonsense is silly. A player isn't going to decide to come to a city just because the owner flies him in on a private jet and has a super fancy dinner with him. That stuff can't hurt, and it might help a tiny in some cases, but the ultimate deciding thing is the money.

They did all that stuff with Carl Pavano. Brought him to OPACY and had his picture on the scoreboard with him wearing a digitally inserted O's uniform. Really went the extra mile.

Thank God the Yanks' money trumped the O's butt-kissing.

[Enjoy Terror]

All I see from OP is a criticism of the GM for not splashing heavier into free agency for impact offensive talent, when it's been clear that the impact bats will come when the pitching is ready to support them. This isn't something MacPhail has done wrong; this is the stage that the Orioles have not come to yet.

This is an impatient reactionary thread blaming MacPhail for 12 years of losing, when it is not even until this upcoming offseason that the team is completely the work of Andy MacPhail. The 2009 season still reeks of past ownership; Baez, Mora, Huff, Gibbons etc. It's acceptable to be frustrated with the Orioles, but MacPhail is not the one to be blamed.

[MemorialStadKid]

They were all big signings. And worst possible examples? Belle and who?

Ok, since you asked:

Raffy's first run on the team was exceptional, and you are referring back to the time BEFORE Belle when Angelos wasn't so gunshy about spending aggressively in the marketplace. Alomar was a great pick up for the Orioles at the time.

In the time AFTER Belle...

When Raffy came back in 2005, we also signed Sosa (one of the worst ideas in the history of pro baseball) and Javy Lopez (whom I personally believed came off of one of the best steroid-enhanced seasons as a catcher for the Braves) as FAs. Raffy got caught up in the steroid scandal and that sunk us in many ways. Lopez didn't perform up to the necessary standards and Sosa stank like a New Orleans whorehouse at low tide.

These were not smart signings but they did show a willingness to SPEND but not to SPEND WISELY as I have said repeatedly.

Before that, we could have signed Vlad, but for a host of unknown and unconfirmed reasons, that didn't happen. If we had signed Vlad, we wouldn't have needed Raffy or Sosa in the lineup at all. One good signing with a good amount of money spent can ward off the need to spend more money later on.

Imagine if we had Mora, Tejada and VLad in the lineup all in their primes? With the rise of Roberts, Markakis and a few others, the 2004-2008 seasons would have been very, very different for the Orioles.

This is what I mean about smart spending. We would have never needed to break the bank against the Red Sox or Yanks in general as we would have been winning, the fanbase would sell out games, and the revenue would be flowing in, allowing Angelos to still hire AM to rebuild the infrastructure while we had a winning atmosphere for the youngsters to develop in.

MSK

[Sports Guy]

Ok, since you asked:

Raffy's first run on the team was exceptional, and you are referring back to the time BEFORE Belle when Angelos wasn't so gunshy about spending aggressively in the marketplace. Alomar was a great pick up for the Orioles at the time.

In the time AFTER Belle...

When Raffy came back in 2005, we also signed Sosa (one of the worst ideas in the history of pro baseball) and Javy Lopez (whom I personally believed came off of one of the best steroid-enhanced seasons as a catcher for the Braves) as FAs. Raffy got caught up in the steroid scandal and that sunk us in many ways. Lopez didn't perform up to the necessary standards and Sosa stank like a New Orleans whorehouse at low tide.

These were not smart signings but they did show a willingness to SPEND but not to SPEND WISELY as I have said repeatedly.

Before that, we could have signed Vlad, but for a host of unknown and unconfirmed reasons, that didn't happen. If we had signed Vlad, we wouldn't have needed Raffy or Sosa in the lineup at all. One good signing with a good amount of money spent can ward off the need to spend more money later on.

Imagine if we had Mora, Tejada and VLad in the lineup all in their primes? With the rise of Roberts, Markakis and a few others, the 2004-2008 seasons would have been very, very different for the Orioles.

This is what I mean about smart spending. We would have never needed to break the bank against the Red Sox or Yanks in general as we would have been winning, the fanbase would sell out games, and the revenue would be flowing in, allowing Angelos to still hire AM to rebuild the infrastructure while we had a winning atmosphere for the youngsters to develop in.

MSK

Since you are preaching about wise spending...tell us who, over the last couple of years, are the FAs that you would have gone after and what contracts would you have offered for them?

BTW, Sosa was traded for, not signed.

[Satyr3206]

Ok, since you asked:

Raffy's first run on the team was exceptional, and you are referring back to the time BEFORE Belle when Angelos wasn't so gunshy about spending aggressively in the marketplace. Alomar was a great pick up for the Orioles at the time.

In the time AFTER Belle...

When Raffy came back in 2005, we also signed Sosa (one of the worst ideas in the history of pro baseball) and Javy Lopez (whom I personally believed came off of one of the best steroid-enhanced seasons as a catcher for the Braves) as FAs. Raffy got caught up in the steroid scandal and that sunk us in many ways. Lopez didn't perform up to the necessary standards and Sosa stank like a New Orleans whorehouse at low tide.

These were not smart signings but they did show a willingness to SPEND but not to SPEND WISELY as I have said repeatedly.

Before that, we could have signed Vlad, but for a host of unknown and unconfirmed reasons, that didn't happen. If we had signed Vlad, we wouldn't have needed Raffy or Sosa in the lineup at all. One good signing with a good amount of money spent can ward off the need to spend more money later on.

Imagine if we had Mora, Tejada and VLad in the lineup all in their primes? With the rise of Roberts, Markakis and a few others, the 2004-2008 seasons would have been very, very different for the Orioles.

This is what I mean about smart spending. We would have never needed to break the bank against the Red Sox or Yanks in general as we would have been winning, the fanbase would sell out games, and the revenue would be flowing in, allowing Angelos to still hire AM to rebuild the infrastructure while we had a winning atmosphere for the youngsters to develop in.

MSK

A few flaws in your theory. The pitching from 04 to 08 was terrible. Murderers Row wouldn't have helped. And if the Orioles had won in that time frame there wouldn't be a need for MacPhail.

[Fan4Life]

How are those bad examples? Alomar was a great sign and Palmeiro was the best FA in the history of the Orioles. Belle flopped.

But you are advocating signing FAs. You can't cherry pick only ones that work out. All those FAs that end up looking stupid looked great at the time, or at least most did. They flop nearly as often as top draft picks.

So you can't say "don't sign FAs that flop like Albert Belle". That's not fair. If you want to spend the money, you have to accept the risks, and paying $12M+ a year to someone who won't play or will play terribly is certainly one of the risks.

Are all busts the same. Not cup size , but a player earning premium $$$ ($20+) annually and produces at 70% of his historical average, versus a player earning $10-12M that produces at 70% of his historical average?

[hatepaste]

Ok, since you asked:

Raffy's first run on the team was exceptional, and you are referring back to the time BEFORE Belle when Angelos wasn't so gunshy about spending aggressively in the marketplace. Alomar was a great pick up for the Orioles at the time.

In the time AFTER Belle...

When Raffy came back in 2005, we also signed Sosa (one of the worst ideas in the history of pro baseball) and Javy Lopez (whom I personally believed came off of one of the best steroid-enhanced seasons as a catcher for the Braves) as FAs. Raffy got caught up in the steroid scandal and that sunk us in many ways. Lopez didn't perform up to the necessary standards and Sosa stank like a New Orleans whorehouse at low tide.

These were not smart signings but they did show a willingness to SPEND but not to SPEND WISELY as I have said repeatedly.

Before that, we could have signed Vlad, but for a host of unknown and unconfirmed reasons, that didn't happen. If we had signed Vlad, we wouldn't have needed Raffy or Sosa in the lineup at all. One good signing with a good amount of money spent can ward off the need to spend more money later on.

Imagine if we had Mora, Tejada and VLad in the lineup all in their primes? With the rise of Roberts, Markakis and a few others, the 2004-2008 seasons would have been very, very different for the Orioles.

This is what I mean about smart spending. We would have never needed to break the bank against the Red Sox or Yanks in general as we would have been winning, the fanbase would sell out games, and the revenue would be flowing in, allowing Angelos to still hire AM to rebuild the infrastructure while we had a winning atmosphere for the youngsters to develop in.

MSK

A couple of corrections here. We traded for Sosa for one year. And the Palmeiro signing (second time) was like a 2 year/7 million dollar deal. That wasn't huge spending.

Javy Lopez, didn't we go after him cause Pudge spurned us? Javy had two very good years here; the third year not so much.

But since we didn't sign Vlad, we had to make other contigency moves. That included Palmeiro and Sosa. Palmeiro wasn't really affected, he could have been here with or without Vlad. Sosa was the obvious replacement. But Vlad didn't want to come here for whatever reason, we had to do something.

To be honest though, I'm not really sure what your complaint is...

1. Rafael Palmeiro second time around was a cheap alternative at first who had decent numbers for his production.

2. Javy Lopez had two great years with the O's.

3. Sosa was a one year rental that didn't pan out, but we didn't give anything up for him. Trying to get the proverbial "lightning in a bottle"

Tejada was a great signing by the O's too.

Now if you want to bring up bad signings like Jay Payton, Marty Cordova and so on then I am ok with it. But once again, that's all pre-MacPhail.

[lovetoaster]

I am so happy that so many people here know exactly what Andy MacPhail's plans are for this team and even the plans he has had for past franchises. We know what we have offered free agents, how much we have wined and dined free agents, who he has considered claiming off waivers, what trade discussions have been had with other teams, etc. I had no idea so many people here were in the inner circle.

The bottom line is what we actually do know pales in comparision to what we don't know. Baseless speculation...you have to love the internets.

Now back to working on my Jump to Conclusions mat.

[waroriole]

Since there is a lovefest thread for MacPhail, one of many on here, this thread is to counter that and shed light on what MacPhail needs to improve.

Approach to Free Agency:

MacPhail's whole approach to free agency is flawed IMO. I'll break it down.

1. Passive pursuit, waits for the market to be established instead of establishing the market

2. Not willing to sell the Orioles, thinks they should sell themselves

3. Does not "wine and dine" players, poor sales approach

4. Not willing to risk high $ amounts on premium FAs

5. Not willing to significantly overpay to lure FAs here (see #2)

6. Rather would sign multiple lower cost FAs because they are a lower risk than pay for one premium FA.

How are 1-6 any different from each other?

[lovetoaster]

All I see from OP is a criticism of the GM for not splashing heavier into free agency for impact offensive talent, when it's been clear that the impact bats will come when the pitching is ready to support them. This isn't something MacPhail has done wrong; this is the stage that the Orioles have not come to yet.

This is an impatient reactionary thread blaming MacPhail for 12 years of losing, when it is not even until this upcoming offseason that the team is completely the work of Andy MacPhail. The 2009 season still reeks of past ownership; Baez, Mora, Huff, Gibbons etc. It's acceptable to be frustrated with the Orioles, but MacPhail is not the one to be blamed.

Great post ET.