Mike Schmidt on Pete Rose

[scOtt]

http://sports.excite.com/news/08222009/v9875.html

[Guest Sailor Jerry]

Screw it. No way should Rose be allowed in. And it's disingenuous to say that Rose never bet on his team to lose. Fact is Rose didn't bet on every game. In fact, Rose never once, ever, bet on the Reds when Mario Soto was the starting pitcher. Why not? He blatantly called into question the integrity of the game as far as I'm concerned.

Don't compare it to other slights against the game. Just look at whether Rose disgraced the game or not. In my eyes he did. Rose doesn't go unmentioned in the hall, and he still shows up HOF weekend and charges for autographs and tries to shag some limelight. He finally fessed up to his gambling on baseball after decades of lying about it because it was clear no one believed him and maybe coming clean was his only way to get into the hall and cash out from his playing days. Screw him.

[The Wedge]

What I find funny is that he acknowledges that Hank Aaron couldn't get through to Selig, even though by all accounts he kinda has Selig's ear...so what's Schmidt's soapboxing going to accomplish? It doesn't really matter what one thinks of the situation, it's pretty clear what Selig thinks, and he's almost like a child sticking his fingers in his ears going "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING" whenever the topic is broached.

[scOtt]

What I find funny is that he acknowledges that Hank Aaron couldn't get through to Selig, even though by all accounts he kinda has Selig's ear...so what's Schmidt's soapboxing going to accomplish? It doesn't really matter what one thinks of the situation, it's pretty clear what Selig thinks, and he's almost like a child sticking his fingers in his ears going "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING" whenever the topic is broached.

^^^^^^^^

What The Wedge said.

[zff4]

Shoeless Joe Jackson isn't in there either, and won't make it in my lifetime, but I'm an old guy.

But if they ever put a steroid wing in, Joe and Pete ought to at least get their own closet.

[Icterus galbula]

Shoeless Joe Jackson isn't in there either...

Throwing a game for money is a little different than betting on your own team to win. The "thrown game" outcome is explicitly affected by forces outside of competitive fairness. Plus it was the world series.

Thats not exactly a quantifiable opinion, but I'm sure others agree with me.

[Can_of_corn]

Throwing a game for money is a little different than betting on your own team to win. The "thrown game" outcome is explicitly affected by forces outside of competitive fairness. Plus it was the world series.

Thats not exactly a quantifiable opinion, but I'm sure others agree with me.

Jackson did not throw a game for money. Jackson agreed to throw games for money. I have seen no evidence that he actually helped throw any games.

That being said I don't want either one of them in.

As for the "steroid wing", you going to add a "greenie" wing and move pretty much every player from 1950 or so over to it? What about the rumors that Mantle and Aaron, amongst others, used steroids, you going to move them as well? Steroids were being used way before Canseco and Bonds, the players just got better at using them, so the effects were more obvious.

[zff4]

Throwing a game for money is a little different than betting on your own team to win. The "thrown game" outcome is explicitly affected by forces outside of competitive fairness. Plus it was the world series.

Thats not exactly a quantifiable opinion, but I'm sure others agree with me.

No, the essential difference is that Jackson is probably innocent. At least in my eyes....

[The Wedge]

Yeah, by all accounts Jackson wasn't a very smart man, but I sincerely doubt that he was dumb enough to confuse "throw the games" with "perform pretty well." Plus all the evidence that has come to light since Landis decided to throw all of the acquited players under the bus does suggest that Jackson not only didn't participate, but was actively trying to break the fix up.

I'd rather see Shoeless Joe get in than Rose, I personally find it a complete travesty that his case has "been under review" for so long by the Commissioners Office. Personally, I think Selig doesn't want to do anything having remotely to do with players on the banned/ineligible list. I hope the next commish has some actual juevos dangling between the twig.

[zff4]

Plus all the evidence that has come to light since Landis decided to throw all of the acquited players under the bus does suggest that Jackson not only didn't participate, but was actively trying to break the fix up.

The House of Representatives agrees with you:

HRES 269 EH

Whereas in September 1920, a criminal court acquitted

‘‘Shoeless Joe’’ Jackson of the charge that he conspired

to throw the 1919 World Series;

Whereas despite the acquittal, Judge Kenesaw Mountain

Landis, baseball’s first commissioner, banned ‘‘Shoeless

Joe’’ Jackson from playing Major League Baseball for

life without conducting any investigation of Jackson’s al-

leged activities, issuing a summary punishment that fell

far short of due process standards;

Whereas the evidence shows that Jackson did not deliberately

misplay during the 1919 World Series in an attempt to

make his team lose the World Series;

Whereas during the 1919 World Series, Jackson’s play was

outstanding—his batting average was .375 (the highest

of any player from either team), he set a World Series

record with 12 hits, he committed no errors, and he hit

the only home run of the series;

Whereas because of his lifetime ban from Major League

Baseball, ‘‘Shoeless Joe’’ Jackson has been excluded from

consideration for admission to the Major League Baseball

Hall of Fame;

Whereas it is appropriate for Major League Baseball to re-

move the taint upon the memory of ‘‘Shoeless Joe’’ Jack-

son and honor his outstanding baseball accomplishments:

Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Represent-

atives that Joseph Jefferson ‘‘Shoeless Joe’’ Jackson should

be appropriately honored for his outstanding baseball accom-

plishments.

[The Wedge]

Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence against Jackson. The "triples conspiracy," his BA and RBI's in the "games they wanted to lose," the fact that he DID admit to the fix. I say the the first two are incredibly hard to quantify unless you're making a case that he was the most phenomenal player EVER to play the game who could do everything he wanted when he wanted (and also that the Reds were complete incompetents), and by most accounts the third was because he was intimidated/coerced/flat out used by the ones who were actively involved. Using his simple nature against him.

[DrungoHazewood]

Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence against Jackson. The "triples conspiracy," his BA and RBI's in the "games they wanted to lose," the fact that he DID admit to the fix. I say the the first two are incredibly hard to quantify unless you're making a case that he was the most phenomenal player EVER to play the game who could do everything he wanted when he wanted (and also that the Reds were complete incompetents), and by most accounts the third was because he was intimidated/coerced/flat out used by the ones who were actively involved. Using his simple nature against him.

Joe Jackson wasn't some simple rube, too intellectually feeble to figure out how to read. He was a normal guy, who happened to be from a time and place where it wasn't uncommon to have little or no formal education and many people couldn't read. My grandfather was from rural Virginia a generation after Shoeless Joe, was a pretty smart guy from all accounts, but he dropped out of school after the 7th grade because it was impossible for him to get the 15 or 20 miles every day to high school.

If Jackson's fans' excuse for admitting he was in on the fix was that he was too simple to understand and was easily manipulated I think they're bending the facts to fit a convenient stereotype to help their cause.

[DrungoHazewood]

Jackson and Rose should go into the Hall after they've created little niche areas for all of the various types of players who can't get in by the legitimate process.

They need a wing for those screwed by the BBWAA, like Santo and Blyleven and Raines and Trammell.

They need a wing for the overlooked stars of the 19th century like Pete Browning and Bill Dahlen.

They need a wing for the mean and vicious, like Dick Allen and Patsy Tebeau.

They need a wing for the clowns like Al Schacht and Nick Altrock.

Then they could have a hallway for the fan favorites like Jim Gantner and Rance Mulliniks and Frank Howard.

And a little annex for pinch hitters, and part timers and platoon players and oldtime relievers like John Lowenstein, and Smoky Burgess, and Firpo Marberry.

Then they can recognize all the great foreign stars like Sadaharu Oh.

Then they could find a little spot for plaques for bit players who came up big, like Rick Dempsey and Scott Brosius.

Then, after all that, maybe they can set aside a space for the cheaters and the gamblers and the liars and the thieves. And finally Rose and Jackson, Heinie Zimmerman, George Hall, and Dick Higham can find their place among baseball's best.

[The Wedge]

Joe Jackson wasn't some simple rube, too intellectually feeble to figure out how to read. He was a normal guy, who happened to be from a time and place where it wasn't uncommon to have little or no formal education and many people couldn't read. My grandfather was from rural Virginia a generation after Shoeless Joe, was a pretty smart guy from all accounts, but he dropped out of school after the 7th grade because it was impossible for him to get the 15 or 20 miles every day to high school.

If Jackson's fans' excuse for admitting he was in on the fix was that he was too simple to understand and was easily manipulated I think they're bending the facts to fit a convenient stereotype to help their cause.

I wasn't suggesting he was this backwoods Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel. But it has been put forth by several people who knew him that he did have a very simplistic outlook on life, a certain naivety. Couple that with his almost illiteracy, and he could have easily been used and abused during that fiasco. I'm not saying he didn't know, I'm saying it was easy to get him to admit things that were only partially based on truth. My dad never got past junior high school in his formal education, and only got his GED in 1992, but he wasn't a rube, either. I'm not trying to shoehorn him in to a stereotype, I'm trying to reconcile the anecdotal evidence.

There's way too many inconsistencies involving Jackson's involvement for my taste. Pretty much everyone else is cut and dry, but there's all the conflictions revolving around Jackson. Not to mention that it was only when Rose was banned that it was made "official" that the ineligibility handed down by Landis meant no HOF. An institution which wasn't even established when he was made ineligible, for which he can't get in to because the brand spanking new and first ever commish wanted to set a hard line.

Then again, I'm also not a person who thinks one should be determined ineligible from the Hall of Fame because they're "banned" from the game. It is the Hall of FAME, not the hall of Virtue. You could easily maintain bans and induct these people. You can induct them and they don't even get to participate in the induction ceremony. Someone has to speak "on their behalf" or even simply states the persons credentials.

Meh, it's never gonna get resolved in our lifetimes. Or if it is, I'll be surprised.

[McNulty]

Jackson and Rose should go into the Hall after they've created little niche areas for all of the various types of players who can't get in by the legitimate process.

They need a wing for those screwed by the BBWAA, like Santo and Blyleven and Raines and Trammell.

They need a wing for the overlooked stars of the 19th century like Pete Browning and Bill Dahlen.

They need a wing for the mean and vicious, like Dick Allen and Patsy Tebeau.

They need a wing for the clowns like Al Schacht and Nick Altrock.

Then they could have a hallway for the fan favorites like Jim Gantner and Rance Mulliniks and Frank Howard.

And a little annex for pinch hitters, and part timers and platoon players and oldtime relievers like John Lowenstein, and Smoky Burgess, and Firpo Marberry.

Then they can recognize all the great foreign stars like Sadaharu Oh.

Then they could find a little spot for plaques for bit players who came up big, like Rick Dempsey and Scott Brosius.

Then, after all that, maybe they can set aside a space for the cheaters and the gamblers and the liars and the thieves. And finally Rose and Jackson, Heinie Zimmerman, George Hall, and Dick Higham can find their place among baseball's best.

I find it interesting that the poster here who most frequently champions changing baseball from antiquated rules and laws still clings to the notion that players who gambled shouldn't be given a second look for the hall of fame. Care to clarify?