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Zach Britton gets some love


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The last two days you have gone completely nuts about anyone critically thinking about how our low minors talent stacks up to others in our division. Instead of constructively entering into the conversation, you whine and moan about how people are being pointlessly mean to Joe Jordan and the front office. That whining is not constructive. What would actually work would be if you tried at all to articulate your point without making insincere claims about how the only way people think differently is if they are mindless sheep worshiping at the altar of the Yanks and BoSox.

The talent in the lower minors for the Os does not stack up with that of the BoSox. I do not see where I disputed that. It seems pretty indisputable to me, but that's also not the level where our greatest investment in draft picks resides. The only prospects we had with any sort of respectable investment (over $250k or high pick) below Frederick were Avery, Hoes, Hudson, Bundy and Hobgood - maybe I'm missing one or two guys. That's it. Our 09 draft picks, save for Townsend and Hobgood, signed too late to make these lists. I'm not sure what people were expecting - Matusz, Wieter and Arrieta have flown through the system - on these lists. Further, I've posted throughout the year that our system would decline in 2010, perhaps precipitously, only to be countered by other posters insisting we would maintain our overall position.

I believe what I posted was that:

- Os prospects are rated about as expected in the lower minors (see above)

- the strength of our well-regarded system entering 2009 was in the upper minors and that people should appreciate what is in the entire system and not just the lack of prospects below Frederick.

- our 09 draft should replenish the lower minors and we should expect better results next year

If I've posted otherwise, we can revisit the particular posts you are referencing. Not really sure I understand the "whine and moan" aspect to this or where I posted that anyone was "pointlessly mean to Joe Jordan and the front office".

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The talent in the lower minors for the Os does not stack up with that of the BoSox. I do not see where I disputed that. It seems pretty indisputable to me, but that's also not the level where our greatest investment in draft picks resides. The only prospects we had with any sort of respectable investment (over $250k or high pick) below Frederick were Avery, Hoes, Hudson, Bundy and Hobgood - maybe I'm missing one or two guys. That's it. Our 09 draft picks, save for Townsend and Hobgood, signed too late to make these lists. I'm not sure what people were expecting - Matusz, Wieter and Arrieta have flown through the system - on these lists. Further, I've posted throughout the year that our system would decline in 2010, perhaps precipitously, only to be countered by other posters insisting we would maintain our overall position.

I believe what I posted was that:

- Os prospects are rated about as expected in the lower minors (see above)

- the strength of our well-regarded system entering 2009 was in the upper minors and that people should appreciate what is in the entire system and not just the lack of prospects below Frederick.

- our 09 draft should replenish the lower minors and we should expect better results next year

If I've posted otherwise, we can revisit the particular posts you are referencing. Not really sure I understand the "whine and moan" aspect to this or where I posted that anyone was "pointlessly mean to Joe Jordan and the front office".

The difference is 1.) some of us think that bolded part is a mistake of strategy and that more investment was warranted to keep the pipeline continuous; and 2.) simply because we were aware this would be a problem doesn't make it any less of a problem.

Everyone foresaw this as a down year. How down was the question. And that fact is, that we got sub-par or barely par performances out of folks who some of us kinda-sorta hoped might make a leap of some kind.

The fact is, Avery, Hoes, Hudson and Miclat haven't shown - yet - that they were worth the investment. Contributions from any one of these aren't foreclosed. But this wasn't a good year from them. Not definitively bad for some (Avery, Hudson, in my book) but no one leaps out, either.

The fact is, everyone here is pretty much in agreement about over-slot signing and whatnot. We may disagree on individual picks (I've long been wary of Jordan's love of raw athletes, too, but I trust him), but most would recognize that the kinds of investments made in 2009 are the only way to keep pace with those who set the pace. I.e., Boston.

I'm far less concerned about the Yankees.

The reason people have responded like they have is because every time we bring up the Red Sox - who I think we all agree are the pace-setters - you act like it's some self-loathing fanboy fanaticism. It's not.

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The reason people have responded like they have is because every time we bring up the Red Sox - who I think we all agree are the pace-setters - you act like it's some self-loathing fanboy fanaticism. It's not.

I appreciate you saying that, LJ.

People go ga-ga over the BoSox, yet Boston was largely a middle of the road system (13th overall), international prospects and all, entering 2009. Hardly the stuff of a pacesetter. The BoSox allocate a lot of resources to acquire amateur talent and they gather players who will yield compensation picks like it is nobody's business - and all that is to be admired and emulated (and I've started past threads imploring our FO to do the same).

In AM's first draft, 2008, the Os spent $1M above slot after the fifth round and had a similar amount on the table to others who went to college. In 2009, the Os more than doubled the above slot signings. Things are headed in the right direction - we've closed the US draft spending gap with the BoSox considerably.

Let's just have some perspective here - let our guys develop, let's see the rest of the lists, be realistic about the quantity of top investments we've had eligible for these lists, etc.

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I appreciate you saying that, LJ.

People go ga-ga over the BoSox, yet Boston was largely a middle of the road system (13th overall), international prospects and all, entering 2009. Hardly the stuff of a pacesetter. The BoSox allocate a lot of resources to acquire amateur talent and they gather players who will yield compensation picks like it is nobody's business - and all that is to be admired and emulated (and I've started past threads imploring our FO to do the same).

In AM's first draft, 2008, the Os spent $1M above slot after the fifth round and had a similar amount on the table to others who went to college. In 2009, the Os more than doubled the above slot signings. Things are headed in the right direction - we've closed the US draft spending gap with the BoSox considerably.

Let's just have some perspective here - let our guys develop, let's see the rest of the lists, be realistic about the quantity of top investments we've had eligible for these lists, etc.

Agreed that Boston going into 2009 had graduated itself into a middling ranking. Of course, what's a hiccup from them is something more from us because we're trying to make up ground. When you're running 7th in a race and stumble, it's a very different thing that stumbling when you're out in front.

As for everything else, I think we all agree. Which is why the pot-shots back and forth are kind of silly.

I'm a little disheartened by the failure of our lower ranks to step forward. On the other hand, I think we could see our system jet back toward the top this year.

Here's hoping.

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This is what BA had to say about the state of Boston's organization coming into this year -- hopefully we'll see something similar regarding Baltimore this year (though, of course, BA isn't the final arbitor of anything):

State of the System: Much of the talent that pushed the Red Sox toward the top of the rankings in recent years has graduated to the majors—Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester, Justin Masterson, Clay Buchholz, Jed Lowrie. That impressive list of graduations has left the upper levels a bit thin, but Boston has invested aggressively internationally and in the draft to reinvigorate the system. A year from now, Boston could vault back into the top 10.
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In AM's first draft, 2008, the Os spent $1M above slot after the fifth round and had a similar amount on the table to others who went to college. In 2009, the Os more than doubled the above slot signings. Things are headed in the right direction - we've closed the US draft spending gap with the BoSox considerably.

They've done a nice job spending money. The jury is still very much out on whether a lot of the players were the right players, and whether or not they can develop them.

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They've done a nice job spending money. The jury is still very much out on whether a lot of the players were the right players, and whether or not they can develop them.

True, but player development seems a lot more sound in recent years compared to before. Almost every prospect brought to the majors this year seemed very well prepared.

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True, but player development seems a lot more sound in recent years compared to before. Almost every prospect brought to the majors this year seemed very well prepared.

On both counts - the picking and the developing - I'm talking about the lower level Jordan picks. I'm really wary of guys like Avery, Hoes, and Givens. We'll see.

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Someone go tell those guys to put more Boston prospects on there so the guys at OH can complain about something. No NYY guys - that list is a disgrace - how can the Os system possibly be ahead of those free spending, international prospect hounding franchises?

Never mind - three Tampa pitchers in the top 25. Let's change the bar then and compare the Os to the Rays to show we are lacking.

As Yoda would say, "Lacking, we are"!

Not.

You read something I didn't read. I thought Roch Kubatko was the one who complained about this. I thought there was an excellent thread on the OH in which different people gave their differing opinions on what it meant or didn't mean that the O's had very few players ranked on BA's individual league Top 20 lists for their Rookie through high-A leagues and unfortunately Boston had a lot of players ranked on those same lists. That was all it was.

EDIT: Sorry, I should've read the rest of the thread first. Instead, I was skimming to see if I had missed some whining in that other thread.

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