Snyder - "I WANT to be the every day first baseman"

[JTrea81]

Yep. And he was upset about us "blocking" Scott Moore, but not Snyder and Bell.

Different situations. We weren't trying to compete in 2008 so there was no reason not to give Moore a shot. If he crashed and burned, there would be no harm done and you would have known he couldn't be a future contributor. But the Orioles never gave him that chance.

As for Snyder and Bell, the expectation is to be competing in 2011, so that means we can't afford to have players struggle. Bell and Snyder are going to have to perform out of the gate in 2011. If we are thinking playoffs as soon as 2011 then we can't afford to have those two struggle in 2011. It would be better to leave them in AAA next year until they force their way onto the team. And by force they are going to have to have a .875-900 OPS in AAA IMO. Snyder is going to have to show some sort of power and Bell is going to have to be able to hit LHP, especially in this division with pitchers like Lester and Sabathia.

If they can't do that, we need to be looking elsewhere for solutions at the corners for 2011. And we should be looking now anyway as we can't depend on those two right now.

[Lucky Jim]

That's a big if, which is exactly why McPhail isn't going to get him.

The house money is on Hardy never being worth what he was before. McPhail doesn't bet against the house. He simply bides his time and picks his spots to make a calculated, smart move.

If McPhail trades Guthrie for Hardy, and Hardy continues at his 2009 pace, he will have basically given Guthrie away for nothing, while also losing a potentially stabilizing member of the rotation who could, if we are so inclined, retrieve a Josh Bell-like prospect in a later deal.

McPhail doesn't jump the gun. He won't make any trade with that type of downside risk.

We are not trading Guthrie for Hardy. Sorry everyone, but you should stop fooling yourselves.

This is simply untrue. 1. Hardy put up a .660 OPS this year. By far his worst in a long time. That said, he sat at .660 and a 6.6 UZR.

Further, Hardy, at a WAR of 1.5, was worth more than Guthrie this year. So I'm not sure how you say he's giving Guthrie (a pitcher w/ equally declining peripherals and an ERA over 5) away for nothing.

Of even bigger importance, we have numerous internal replacements w/ some chance of giving us 200 IP and an ERA over 5. We also have internal replacements capable of giving us Guthrie's upside: 200 IP and an ERA of 3.5-4.00. We have no one capable of giving us giving us Hardy's upside. And no one capable, once Izturis is gone, of giving us even Hardy's downside. (I'm assuming that you, like me, figure Izturis isn't likely to be around beyond next year.)

[Sports Guy]

Different situations. We weren't trying to compete in 2008 so there was no reason not to give Moore a shot. If he crashed and burned, there would be no harm done and you would have known he couldn't be a future contributor. But the Orioles never gave him that chance.

As for Snyder and Bell, the expectation is to be competing in 2011, so that means we can't afford to have players struggle. Bell and Snyder are going to have to perform out of the gate in 2011. If we are thinking playoffs as soon as 2011 then we can't afford to have those two struggle in 2011. It would be better to leave them in AAA next year until they force their way onto the team. And by force they are going to have to have a .875-900 OPS in AAA IMO. Snyder is going to have to show some sort of power and Bell is going to have to be able to hit LHP, especially in this division with pitchers like Lester and Sabathia.

If they can't do that, we need to be looking elsewhere for solutions at the corners for 2011. And we should be looking now anyway as we can't depend on those two right now.

My god, your logic is so awful.

[Lucky Jim]

Different situations. We weren't trying to compete in 2008 so there was no reason not to give Moore a shot. If he crashed and burned, there would be no harm done and you would have known he couldn't be a future contributor. But the Orioles never gave him that chance.

As for Snyder and Bell, the expectation is to be competing in 2011, so that means we can't afford to have players struggle. Bell and Snyder are going to have to perform out of the gate in 2011. If we are thinking playoffs as soon as 2011 then we can't afford to have those two struggle in 2011. It would be better to leave them in AAA next year until they force their way onto the team. And by force they are going to have to have a .875-900 OPS in AAA IMO. Snyder is going to have to show some sort of power and Bell is going to have to be able to hit LHP, especially in this division with pitchers like Lester and Sabathia.

If they can't do that, we need to be looking elsewhere for solutions at the corners for 2011. And we should be looking now anyway as we can't depend on those two right now.

To be clear, your logic is that: even if starting Bell and Snyder greatly improves our chances of competing in 2012 and beyond, if it hurts our chances of competing at all in 2011, then it's not worth it.

I'd say you're indulging in Trea-ian logical gymnastics, but really, your thinking has jettisoned logic, and gone off into some non-Euclidean space where logic bends in ways the simple among us simply can't comprehend. JTrea, the Lobachevsky of the OH.

[Sports Guy]

To be clear, your logic is that: even if starting Bell and Snyder greatly improves our chances of competing in 2012 and beyond, if it hurts our chances of competing at all in 2011, then it's not worth it.

I'd say you're indulging in Trea-ian logical gymnastics, but really, your thinking has jettisoned logic, and gone off into some non-Euclidean space where logic bends in ways the simple among us simply can't comprehend. JTrea, the Lobachevsky of the OH.

And the idea that THIS MUST HAPPEN RIGHT NOW, is absurd.

We have much larger needs right now...Improve rotation, improve pen(these 2 go hand in hand), get a SS.

Obtaining stop gaps for first and/or third is fine...If a trade comes along that makes sense for us to obtain a long term solution at first or third, that's ok as well.

But to act as if we must block these guys is just ridiculously poor and shows a total lack of understanding of what this team needs to do.

[JTrea81]

My god, your logic is so awful.

SG do you want to see a playoff team or just a bunch of young homegrown players?

I want to see this team win.

Going with all cheap, young players guarantees us absolutely nothing.

Brandon Snyder is a nice story to cheer for, but the reality is, if he's Billy Butler, he's not exactly going to do a heck of a lot for us compared to what we need from that position.

As for Josh Bell, he's one of your former Dodger mancrushes, so I know you want to see him succeed, but his lack of hitting LHP is a real concern especially in this division where he will face a lot of LHP as we saw this year.

If the Red Sox had Bell and Snyder coming up do you think they'd leave positions open for them with stopgaps? Of course not, they'd count anything those players would give them as a bonus because they want to win games. And I thought that was our goal as well.

Just look at Lars Anderson and how hyped he was and he was a better prospect than Snyder. The Red Sox still went after Teixeira anyway and also tried to trade for Adrian Gonzalez and will likely try again.

[Hank Scorpio]

SG do you want to see a playoff team or just a bunch of young homegrown players?

I want to see this team win.

Going with all cheap, young players guarantees us absolutely nothing.

Brandon Snyder is a nice story to cheer for, but the reality is, if he's Billy Butler, he's not exactly going to do a heck of a lot for us compared to what we need from that position.

As for Josh Bell, he's one of your former Dodger mancrushes, so I know you want to see him succeed, but his lack of hitting LHP is a real concern especially in this division where he will face a lot of LHP as we saw this year.

If the Red Sox had Bell and Snyder coming up do you think they'd leave positions open for them with stopgaps? Of course not, they'd count anything those players would give them as a bonus because they want to win games. And I thought that was our goal as well.

Just look at Lars Anderson and how hyped he was and he was a better prospect than Snyder. The Red Sox still went after Teixeira anyway and also tried to trade for Adrian Gonzalez and will likely try again.

If you want a guarantee about how your team will perform, go ahead and become a MFY fan.

Anyone looking for guarantees in professional sports is not paying attention.

[JTrea81]

And the idea that THIS MUST HAPPEN RIGHT NOW, is absurd.

We have much larger needs right now...Improve rotation, improve pen(these 2 go hand in hand), get a SS.

Obtaining stop gaps for first and/or third is fine...If a trade comes along that makes sense for us to obtain a long term solution at first or third, that's ok as well.

But to act as if we must block these guys is just ridiculously poor and shows a total lack of understanding of what this team needs to do.

Now your obsession with SS is a little interesting given the fact that we can likely just extend Izturis. Why do we need a SS right now if we don't need a 1B solution or a 3B solution? Is it just because we don't have a 23-25 year old at the position?

And what good is putting money and resources into an improved bullpen if your aren't going to have the offense to back up your pitching anyway?

[Hank Scorpio]

Since you haven't replied in the other thread, you wanna tell me what Matt Holliday's career MiL OPS was, Sly?

You know, the guy that hit 12 HR in 522 AB his 23 year old season in AA? The same guy you want to hand $100MM to this offseason?

[Lucky Jim]

Now your obsession with SS is a little interesting given the fact that we can likely just extend Izturis. Why do we need a SS right now if we don't need a 1B solution or a 3B solution? Is it just because we don't have a 23-25 year old at the position?

And what good is putting money and resources into an improved bullpen if your aren't going to have the offense to back up your pitching anyway?

Are you really asking what the difference is between SS and 1B/3B in the O's organization?

[TiredofLosing20]

To be clear, your logic is that: even if starting Bell and Snyder greatly improves our chances of competing in 2012 and beyond, if it hurts our chances of competing at all in 2011, then it's not worth it.

I'd say you're indulging in Trea-ian logical gymnastics, but really, your thinking has jettisoned logic, and gone off into some non-Euclidean space where logic bends in ways the simple among us simply can't comprehend. JTrea, the Lobachevsky of the OH.

For those of us less literate.. JTrea, he doesn't think your argument makes any sense and it appears to be manufactured just to support the inconsistencies in your approach to Scott Moore and Brandon Snyder.

(I had to type that out loud so that I understood) Talk about gymnastics.. :laughlol:

[JTrea81]

Since you haven't replied in the other thread, you wanna tell me what Matt Holliday's career MiL OPS was, Sly?

You know, the guy that hit 12 HR in 522 AB his 23 year old season in AA? The same guy you want to hand $100MM to this offseason?

I'm not the one comparing him to Billy Butler. That's what Tony put his ceiling at.

Mike Jacobs at the worst, Billy Butler at the best.

[Sports Guy]

SG do you want to see a playoff team or just a bunch of young homegrown players?

Both.

I want to see this team win.

We all do.

Going with all cheap, young players guarantees us absolutely nothing.

And what does trading half of your farm system for 1 player guarantee you?

Brandon Snyder is a nice story to cheer for, but the reality is, if he's Billy Butler, he's not exactly going to do a heck of a lot for us compared to what we need from that position.

As for Josh Bell, he's one of your former Dodger mancrushes, so I know you want to see him succeed, but his lack of hitting LHP is a real concern especially in this division where he will face a lot of LHP as we saw this year.

If the Red Sox had Bell and Snyder coming up do you think they'd leave positions open for them with stopgaps? Of course not, they'd count anything those players would give them as a bonus because they want to win games. And I thought that was our goal as well.

You continue to ignore logic...We have gone over this before but everytime I bring it up, you run away from the topic...Again, YOU HAVE SAID that you think we should be getting an 815ish OPS out of Jones, Pie, Reimold, Wieters, Markakis and BRob...That is 6 everyday players producing at an OPS that is contending level and then some...So, even if all Snyder and Bell gave us was a combined 750 OPS and drug those numbers to the 790-800 range, we would still have a contending offense in terms of OPS numbers...Go get Hardy and if he bounces back, he gives you another 800+ OPS bat.

Whether you want to admit it or not, that is a contending team..offensively and the defense would be pretty solid as well.

Just look at Lars Anderson and how hyped he was and he was a better prospect than Snyder. The Red Sox still went after Teixeira anyway and also tried to trade for Adrian Gonzalez and will likely try again.

The Red Sox are in a different situation than us...To even bring this up shows your total lack of understanding on this topic.

Again, if the right deal is there, I am not opposed to making it...Personally, I am very skeptical of Snyder myself...Bell I think is close to a sure thing to give us average defense and a 780+ OPS...How much better can be than that is up to him but the guy has 850+ OPS potential with his power and plate discipline.

At the end of the day though, this team isn't in position to kill the farm system for 1 player unless that player is going to be here for a minimum of 3 years and not cost us a ton of money to extend him on top of that.

You can't say to give up draft picks and trade 4 or 5 players...That is a short term solution that will just cause a long term problem.

Whatever this team accomplishes is going to happen with what is currently in the organization...What we bring in from outside the organization is what will put us over the top. Being put over the top is going to happen for us in 2010, so the urgency isn't there like you think it is.

Players are also available every offseason.

[Lucky Jim]

For those of us less literate.. JTrea, he doesn't think your argument makes any sense and it appears to be manufactured just to support the inconsistencies in your approach to Scott Moore and Brandon Snyder.

(I had to type that out loud so that I understood) Talk about gymnastics.. :laughlol:

That's not really what I mean. I mean that most of us try to look at things from a position of simple logic. Some cost-benefit analysis, projections, progressions. Etc. Trea, however, has weighted so many things subjectively that he, in fact, doesn't operate in the same world of linearity. His logic doesn't look like our logic. It bends.

While Trea can be manipulative (his selective quotations are among the most egregious on the board) I don't think he's manipulating anything to support his point. I think he literally looks at a different universe than the rest of us.

One where the value of competing in 2011 > value of competing in 2012-2015.

[Sports Guy]

Now your obsession with SS is a little interesting given the fact that we can likely just extend Izturis. Why do we need a SS right now if we don't need a 1B solution or a 3B solution? Is it just because we don't have a 23-25 year old at the position?

And what good is putting money and resources into an improved bullpen if your aren't going to have the offense to back up your pitching anyway?

We have nothing long term at SS...That is a position that has to be addressed.

And I am not saying to put money into the pen..But adding a solid mid rotation starter and moving some of the kids, like DH and Berken, to the pen where they belong will help the pen out immensely...But if you don't improve the rotation, you can't improve the pen.