Schmuck: O's need a middle of the order bat

[hoosiers]

The Orioles have the advantage now because they are one of the first teams that have dropped their payroll, so they can give more money up front to FAs and take on expensive contracts via trade, where teams like the Angels and Tigers can't do that. But those teams will be able to do that a year or two from now.

You realize this financial advantage has been created by ignoring a majority of your posts.

[brooksie05]

Beggers can't be choosers. Tex was a perfect fit. Holliday and Bay may not be perfect fits, but they do fit each as a #4 hitter.

Lackey is a perfect fit as a TOR.

And as I've said we need to ramp up our talent. We can't just keep waiting until we find the perfect fit unless we want to continue to miss the playoffs year after year. We need as much talent as we can get and with our financial situation, this is a prime opportunity to add some talent IMO.

Absolutely agree. We can't wait around and hope for talent to maybe develop someday. Rather, we absolutely have to land that talent and hold on to it. In a perfect world, hopefully we can do both.

[MemorialStadKid]

To be fair, it's easier to win an argument against an opponent you've made up wholesale.

You guys are funny. :rofl:

I have been speaking about this subject ever since the Tex fallout, and the general vibe I get is this:

"We do need to make changes, but for now, let's just wait until the prospects develop before making any big moves. In the meantime, wins and losses don't matter."

That has come up on multiple occasions and I don't feel like re-hashing this ad nauseum.

I don't need to make up fake statements about what has been a consistent sentiment in regards to the acquisition of expensive elite free agents.

MSK

[Lucky Jim]

You would be surprised at how many people really do believe that we don't need to make any improvements to the team.

The "average joe" fan is appalled, disgusted and furious at the direction of the team and would love to see a big splash signing. Even though the hardcore OH faithful might cry to the rafters, it would send a clear message throughout Birdland that the Orioles leadership is serious about contending and improvement.

Its really that simple.

MSK

Can you find those posts? I've seen people say that we need to time our improvements, and that they're not immediately necessary. I've seen no one say that we don't need to make any improvements to the team.

When you say stuff like this, you should really support it with actual posts.

Sure, these posts can be found by looking up any thread that I have been a part of where there has been a suggestion to actually spend money on an elite free agent. I am tired of having that conversation.

There are some folks here that believe that our prospects will magically develop into an elite squad like this one (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Martinez, Youklis, Ortiz, Drew, Nady, Bucholz, Beckett, Wakefield, etc.) if we just sit back and wait.

Meanwhile, the Yankees (Jeter, ARod, Tex, Damon, Matsui, Posada, Sabathia, Burnett, etc.) just seem to be getting better and better and better and better and better while we do nothing.

This conclusion is based on precedent, not conjecture.

That list of free agents will not take us to the level we need to be at, and I never said that we needed to mortgage our future for short-term success (as people are constantly accused of believing if you make the simple suggestion that we spend money), but we definitely need to do SOMETHING as a show of faith for the ever-dwindling fanbase to show that we are serious about contending at some point in the future.

The OH is not representative of the average Orioles fan or Baltimore resident who might be moved to spend money on the team if they *gasp* started looking like a real baseball team once in a while.

If anyone believes that the Orioles can continue tanking seasons for the sake of waiting for the prospects to develop and expect to have fans in 3-5 years, you are going to be in for a big shock.

Angelos can afford for the Orioles to keep losing, but the integrity of the franchise can't wait much longer.

MSK

You guys are funny. :rofl:

I have been speaking about this subject ever since the Tex fallout, and the general vibe I get is this:

"We do need to make changes, but for now, let's just wait until the prospects develop before making any big moves. In the meantime, wins and losses don't matter."

That has come up on multiple occasions and I don't feel like re-hashing this ad nauseum.

I don't need to make up fake statements about what has been a consistent sentiment in regards to the acquisition of expensive elite free agents.

MSK

You completely make up imaginary opponents to arguments. In fact, your main rhetorical tactic is to assert an 'easy target' opposition without any support that anyone actually holds it.

Granted, this is better than accusing members of the board of racism without actually using the word, or pointing out anything remotely racist. But that's just because the latter technique is execrable.

The point I made in my very first post is that most on here know that improvements are necessary, they just don't feel the urgency about this off-season. Apparently, the value you put on this off-season's activities is largely symbolic, however. Or at least, that's the gist of the above posts.

[McNulty]

You realize this financial advantage has been created by ignoring a majority of your posts.

I wish I could 5 star this post. Bravo.

[MemorialStadKid]

You completely make up imaginary opponents to arguments. In fact, your main rhetorical tactic is to assert an 'easy target' opposition without any support that anyone actually holds it.

Granted, this is better than accusing members of the board of racism without actually using the word, or pointing out anything remotely racist. But that's just because the latter technique is execrable.

The point I made in my very first post is that most on here know that improvements are necessary, they just don't feel the urgency about this off-season. Apparently, the value you put on this off-season's activities is largely symbolic, however. Or at least, that's the gist of the above posts.

Not symbolic at all, we do need to fill in some gaps on the team. Plain and simple.

I am at work now, but since you have this ridiculous desire for me to comb through all my past posting and arguments about free agency, I will be happy to do that and then isolate all the people that feel that we don't need to do much.

But once I do, your entire idea of me making up fake opponents will be completely blown out of the water.

:scratchchinhmm:

MSK

[TiredofLosing20]

The point I made in my very first post is that most on here know that improvements are necessary, they just don't feel the urgency about this off-season.

I will go you a step further. ALL on here know that improvements are necessary and I know the potential pitfalls of absolutes.

[McNulty]

Not symbolic at all, we do need to fill in some gaps on the team. Plain and simple.

I am at work now, but since you have this ridiculous desire for me to comb through all my past posting and arguments about free agency, I will be happy to do that and then isolate all the people that feel that we don't need to do much.

But once I do, your entire idea of me making up fake opponents will be completely blown out of the water.

:scratchchinhmm:

MSK

You mean like this thread?

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87328

You do seem to have quite the martyr complex around here. I still don't know why.

[TiredofLosing20]

I will be happy to do that and then isolate all the people that feel that we don't need to do much.

You would be surprised at how many people really do believe that we don't need to make any improvements to the team

You do know how different those two phrases are right?

But even that said, I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who would argue that we "don't need to do too much".

I think what you will find is that the majority of folks you are arguing with are willing to gather more information as to what we already have before determining how much more we have to do.

[Lucky Jim]

Not symbolic at all, we do need to fill in some gaps on the team. Plain and simple.

I am at work now, but since you have this ridiculous desire for me to comb through all my past posting and arguments about free agency, I will be happy to do that and then isolate all the people that feel that we don't need to do much.

But once I do, your entire idea of me making up fake opponents will be completely blown out of the water.

:scratchchinhmm:

MSK

You're going to "blow me out of the water" by changing the parameters of the discussion? Kudos. I guess.

I tell you what, if you find more than five posters that say we don't need to "make any improvements" I'm happy to put "MSK blew me out of the water" as my signature.

If you can't, you should probably put "I <3 Strawmen" as your signature.

I'm not going to play some game where you have an ever-shifting definition of what you said, simply because it was pointed out that it was baseless and ridiculous. You don't get to retrofit your BS into something sensible simply because the posts are spread out over 8 pages. Saying that posters who think we need to do less than you do = people who think we don't need any improvements is wrong. Saying that posters who think that deferring until next offseason to spend = people who think we don't need any improvements is also wrong.

I asked you a simple question in the first post: could you point to some posts that state that the Orioles don't need to make "any improvements"? You still haven't done it. I doubt anyone is surprised.

[MemorialStadKid]

You're going to "blow me out of the water" by changing the parameters of the discussion? Kudos. I guess.

I tell you what, if you find more than five posters that say we don't need to "make any improvements" I'm happy to put "MSK blew me out of the water" as my signature.

If you can't, you should probably put "I <3 Strawmen" as your signature.

I'm not going to play some game where you have an ever-shifting definition of what you said, simply because it was pointed out that it was baseless and ridiculous. You don't get to retrofit your BS into something sensible simply because the posts are spread out over 8 pages. Saying that posters who think we need to do less than you do = people who think we don't need any improvements is wrong. Saying that posters who think that deferring until next offseason to spend = people who think we don't need any improvements is also wrong.

I asked you a simple question in the first post: could you point to some posts that state that the Orioles don't need to make "any improvements"? You still haven't done it. I doubt anyone is surprised.

To be honest, the reason I didn't do it is because I didn't feel like it. I have been having this same discussion for months now and it gets silly after a while.

Mind you, its going to take me a few hours to go back through all the posts because this stuff goes back to the day when Tex announced that he was signing with the Yankees. I won't be able to get onto this project until later tonight, but rest assured that I will get back to you on this over weekend just so you see I wasn't making this up.

I am not changing the parameters of anything. You will read it with your own eyes man.

And I WILL put the strawmen thing in my sig if I don't do this.

MSK

[mweb]

This is why a lot of folks can justify a big contract for Lackey now. We really aren't a mid-80's win team this year, but we could probably be next year.

This is the most frustrating part of AM's policy to me. I understanding growing the arms...but I wouldn't mind going for one special arm to help this franchise, understanding that the risk is higher than buying a bat.

If we are in that position next off-season, there will be more very good arms available.

[MemorialStadKid]

You mean like this thread?

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87328

You do seem to have quite the martyr complex around here. I still don't know why.

"Martyr complex?"

I don't think so.

I said that people tend to flip flop their points of view depending on the dominant sentiment of the popular posters.

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.

But I did notice that people would immediately say something negative to me without even reading what I said first.

I never do that to anyone.

MSK

[ChesterPeake]

You realize this financial advantage has been created by ignoring a majority of your posts.

Great! Now try to squeeze the money out of Angelos "when the time is right", as some people around here would say.

I'm truly sorry that I'm such a skeptic. I'd like to believe that AM's rebuild will come out fine but I just don't trust Angelos to not screw it up. I suppose that my mistrust of Angelos is what is at the heart of my desire to see the O's spend money on a top FA now.

[mweb]

Trea and MSK aren't the only guys who have used this approach of arguing with the imagined large group of people who believe we can contend by doing nothing. One of those posters is much more respected as well. It seems he's come to his senses on the matter though.