We should ignore NY and Boston (for now)

[Old#5fan]

Yea, I agree with Frobby on most matters, but there's no way you can sit by and watch the two teams that you NEED to beat continue to get better while you basically stay the same.

Do boxers ignore their toughest opponents? Do NFL teams? Do race car drivers?

I can't think of any sport offhand where you don't pay close attention to what the top guys in the game are up to. You HAVE to pay attention to the Yanks and Sox because they keep destroying us year after year.

The argument that we need to keep waiting and losing gets weaker and weaker with each passing season because all the patience in the world has gotten us NOWHERE.

Didn't somebody in the warehouse say that "wins and losses now matter?"

MSK

Where some seem to be missing the point is that, yeah the Orioles are getting better with their younger talent, but the Sox and Yankees are also getting better with their high priced aquisitions of proven talent. So proportionately, you are correct in that competively we just continue to remain the same. By that I mean they are always going to be 20 games better than us if not more.

[ChaosLex]

And if that never happens? Then what?

Then we start over again. We place whoever has panned out of Matusz, Wieters, Markakis, Tillman, etc., on the market and start over.

There's risk involved no matter what we do.

[geschinger]

And if that never happens? Then what?

Is it really any different than if Matt Holiday becomes Shawn Green 2.0 or John Lackey becomes Mike Hampton 2.0 or Prince Fielder becomes Mo Vaughn 2.0 etc...

It's a lot easier to recover if we fail to develop star quality players than it is if we have to count years for bad contracts to fall off the books before we have the resources available that we need to augment a roster built the right way.

[Old#5fan]

Did the Rays suddenly forget their "culture of losing" the season they went to the WS? Their young players didn't seem to be affected by all the losing.

There's no such thing as a "culture of losing". Call it what you want but it's just bad teams with bad players losing a bunch of games. It's just another myth like team chemistry. If we put enough good players on the team they will win more games. Pretty simple.

You used Roberts in your first post. I don't see how him feeling bad because he's been on such a bad team has really changed his game. He's still the same productive player he has been.

So Roberts, Markakis, Jones, Wieters, Reimold are all bad players? I disagree. I think they need to develop a winning attitude and you only do that when you are also playing with other talented individuals along side of you. The Orioles need to acquire it and get it soon or none of these individuals are going to elevate their game to the extent it could be elevated (in my view).

I think the Rays got a bit lucky to go along with their talent. All that did was spur on the Yankees and Boston to further upgrade their all-star laden lineups and pitching staff. Tampa to me was a one-year wonder. I don't view them as that much of a sucess story for the Orioles to emulate.

[RShack]

The only problem I see with that is you are allowing your young and supposedly talented players to develop a culture of losing and intimidation by not being talented enough as a team to be more than whipping boys and win padders for the Sox and Yankees. It has to be frustrating for guys like Roberts to lose year after year, and that is now going to be the case with the youngsters on this team as well.

It sort of fosters the idea that no matter how hard they try they cannot compete. Common sense would dictate that would have to affect their confidence levels. Losing breeds losing just as winning breeds winning. Its that simple.

I see the point you are. making, it's not a bad one. Call me an optimist - you will see a culture of a young and improving team this year, not a culture of losing. Just my opinion.

I agree that BRob has put up with year after year of depressing crap. But we gotta remember that BRob was a talent-infusion of one guy. He was an island in a sea of decades of growing nobody. The current situation is different. Even if the O's don't do anything else, it's already the case that about half of the roster spots that really matter are filled by guys who had not even seen the inside of OPACY a year ago. In general, these guys are winners, they've won and been successful at baseball their whole life. They aren't used to losing and they want no part of it. And they're about to take over the joint.

So, yeah, Frobby's right, the thing to do is to forget about BOS and NYY because we can't do anything about them... just like they can't do anything about the Orioles. Remember this: There is absolutely nothing that either BOS or the MFY's can do to prevent the Orioles from being excellent. Nothing.

[JTrea81]

Remember this: There is absolutely nothing that either BOS or the MFY's can do to prevent the Orioles from being excellent. Nothing.

They can sign away players like Mike Mussina...

Granted if the Orioles have internally found a replacement that will be just as good, then it's a non-issue...

[MemorialStadKid]

Remember this: There is absolutely nothing that either BOS or the MFY's can do to prevent the Orioles from being excellent. Nothing.

So what's stopping us:

1) Lack of signing good players when they are available.

2) Lousy scouting.

3) An owner that refuses to spend money.

4) A GM that watches good players sign to better teams and then signs the table scrap equivalent and expects them to improve on a losing squad.

MSK

[ChaosLex]

This is going to be a fun offseason.

[Hank Scorpio]

And if that never happens? Then what?

Then we sit around and listen to you gloat about how you were right all along...

When the reality of the situation is, regardless of whether or not they pan out, you still would have been wrong.

Kinda sad, in a way.

[byrdz]

So Roberts, Markakis, Jones, Wieters, Reimold are all bad players? I disagree.

Of course they are good players. Try not to twist my words.

I said if you put enough good players on one team they will win. The O's have some good players but not at each position. History has given us some pretty bad teams which is what you refer to as a "culture of losing". I say those are just teams with more bad player than good.

Let's try to be intelletually honest from now on.

[oriolefaith]

It's tough being a O's fan why we sit here and try to build a pitching rotation with home grown and Yanks go out and build with their money with likes of C.C and A.J and Red Sox do the same with likes of Lackey and Dice K

[Moose Milligan]

So what's stopping us:

1) Lack of signing good players when they are available.

2) Lousy scouting.

3) An owner that refuses to spend money.

4) A GM that watches good players sign to better teams and then signs the table scrap equivalent and expects them to improve on a losing squad.

MSK

Our scouts aren't lousy.

Our owner hasn't refused to spend money. As evidenced by locking up Roberts and Markakis to long term deals. As evidenced by spending over slot on a lot of players in last years draft.

But lets not let a few facts get in the way of a good chest pounding and MacPhail/Owner/Front Office bashing.

[JTrea81]

Trea, there's a bit of risk involved no matter how you cut it. There's risk that Matusz and Wieters might not work out and there's risk as described by Frobby in the Toronto situation.

Your problem is that you act like none of our prospects are ever going to pan out.

I don't think they are going to crash and burn. But what if Wieters becomes more like a Ramon Hernandez, or Matusz becomes a Randy Wolf.

Not dominant, but solid ML regulars.

Churchill compared Tillman to Gil Meche when he was coming up through the Mariners system, and Meche is hardly a TOR for a competitive team.

So what happens if we have Wolf, Meche and Hernandez instead of Cuellar, Palmer and Piazza?

[Frobby]

Where some seem to be missing the point is that, yeah the Orioles are getting better with their younger talent, but the Sox and Yankees are also getting better with their high priced aquisitions of proven talent. So proportionately, you are correct in that competively we just continue to remain the same. By that I mean they are always going to be 20 games better than us if not more.

I completely disagree here. Most of our improvement is going to come from young, talented players maturing and getting better. NY and Boston can't get much better than they already are, and guess what, the vast majority of our game are against other teams, not them. And as I said in the OP, I'm talking abóut what the O's should do NOW, not what they should do if they are already an 88-90 win team. That's for another day.

[MemorialStadKid]

Our scouts aren't lousy.

Our owner hasn't refused to spend money. As evidenced by locking up Roberts and Markakis to long term deals. As evidenced by spending over slot on a lot of players in last years draft.

But lets not let a few facts get in the way of a good chest pounding and MacPhail/Owner/Front Office bashing.

Wow, locking up Roberts and Markakis. That is what they SHOULD have done, not something that's an above-average move for a team.

Our scouting is lousy compared to the Angels, Red Sox, Yankees, White Sox, Braves, Diamondbacks and Marlins.

We JUST started spending some real money on the draft, but nothing in free agency.

Let's not pretend that this has been a consistent standard of behavior.

MSK