We should ignore NY and Boston (for now)

[JTrea81]

Our scouts aren't lousy.

Our owner hasn't refused to spend money. As evidenced by locking up Roberts and Markakis to long term deals. As evidenced by spending over slot on a lot of players in last years draft.

But lets not let a few facts get in the way of a good chest pounding and MacPhail/Owner/Front Office bashing.

One could question our ML advanced scouting. Our team does seem ill prepared for certain teams. That's MacPhail's nephew's dept BTW.

And I agree on your second point, our owner hasn't refused to spend money, our GM has, and that's why he has the power he does IMO.

[Hank Scorpio]

Wow, locking up Roberts and Markakis. That is what they SHOULD have done, not something that's an above-average move for a team.

Our scouting is lousy compared to the Angels, Red Sox, Yankees, White Sox, Braves, Diamondbacks and Marlins.

We JUST started spending some real money on the draft, but nothing in free agency.

Let's not pretend that this has been a consistent standard of behavior.

MSK

How anyone can look at what has happened under MacPhail and not see the change in philosophy/thinking from previous disasters is far, far beyond me.

There is a LOT more talent on the big league roster than there was three years ago. There's not quite enough yet, but it's headed in the right direction... and pretty much none of it was acquired through free agency.

Which tells you that you don't need free agency to build a contender.

(Shocker)

[oriolefaith]

One could question our ML advanced scouting. Our team does seem ill prepared for certain teams. That's MacPhail's nephew's dept BTW.

And I agree on your second point, our owner hasn't refused to spend money, our GM has, and that's why he has the power he does IMO.

Seems like PA didn't tell him to cut cost when we started to dish the money out for :angryfire: MARK TEXERIA!

[birdman57]

I'm reading a lot of hand-wringing posts about what NY and Boston are doing. I say, forget it, and stick with the plan. A couple of years ago Toronto thought they were ready to run with the big boys and spent a ton on Burnett and Ryan in addition to overpaying some of their own players. Where did it get them? And we are much further away than Toronto was then.

When Matusz is a Cy Young candidate and Wieters is an MVP candidate, it will be time to sign some expensive additional pieces. Until then, we should ignore NY and Boston and just let our young guys develop.

We don't have much choice really considering the economic climate (cheap) surrounding the warehouse and our apparent commitment to youth. That said, I would still make a run at AGon for reasons I've outlined in this forum many times. You need to give your fanbase a boost, some hope and reason to believe and pulling off that kind of deal even if it means sacrificing Tillman, Arrietta etc. in my mind is still worth the gamble that we can (a) contend before his contract is up and (b) convince him to sign here long term...

[scOtt]

Boston and NY are not getting better! Certain posters need to quit saying this! :angryfire:

They are the same, every year. 90-100 wins or so. In 5 years they will still be 90-100. We are just 2 1/2 years into a complete overhaul. We have 12-15 promising pitching prospects, not one of which has a full year of ML time. Of all those pitchers, if 2 or 3 or 4 or more don't work out it will be a statistical anomaly. We need at least next year to see who works and who doesn't.

2011 is the first year we could even hope to contend, 2012 is more likely. And when that happens... Bos and NY will STILL be 90-100 wins, no better than they are now.

You're not going to fix two decades of MiL decay overnight, and you're certainly not going to fix it with $$$$$$$$$$

[Moose Milligan]

I don't think they are going to crash and burn. But what if Wieters becomes more like a Ramon Hernandez, or Matusz becomes a Randy Wolf.

Not dominant, but solid ML regulars.

Churchill compared Tillman to Gil Meche when he was coming up through the Mariners system, and Meche is hardly a TOR for a competitive team.

So what happens if we have Wolf, Meche and Hernandez instead of Cuellar, Palmer and Piazza?

And what if? What if we sign Holliday to a huge contract and he tanks? What if Lackey blows out his arm after we sign him?

It's not like contending teams don't have solid regulars on their rosters, Trea. And please don't reply with "But thats not what it takes to compete in the AL East."

Your issue, Trea, is that you're so afraid of failure. Paralysis by analysis. Any analysis by you involving our young talent involves you throwing up your hands and saying "Well what if Wieters isn't a HoF catcher, but merely a pretty good one? What if Matusz is Randy Wolf?" And what if? You'll never know till you try. Your problem is that you don't want to try, you don't want to wait and see. You'd be happy to trade them all because they haven't proven themselves. The fact that every major league superstar that you'd love to trade for was once in their boat doesn't sway you at all.

If Matusz turns into a 12-10 pitcher who can log 200 innings a year, I'd gladly take that. Would I be disappointed that he isn't a TOR starter? Yeah, probably...but it's not like he'd be Sidney Ponson or Daniel CaBBrera. If Wieters OPS'd at .775 I'd be disappointed too...but it's not like he'd be part of the problem.

[TinCup]

I see the point you are. making, it's not a bad one. Call me an optimist - you will see a culture of a young and improving team this year, not a culture of losing. Just my opinion.

Frobby? You? An optimist?

Get outta here......

[Moose Milligan]

Wow, locking up Roberts and Markakis. That is what they SHOULD have done, not something that's an above-average move for a team.

Our scouting is lousy compared to the Angels, Red Sox, Yankees, White Sox, Braves, Diamondbacks and Marlins.

We JUST started spending some real money on the draft, but nothing in free agency.

Let's not pretend that this has been a consistent standard of behavior.

MSK

It's what we should have done and its what we did. So why are you complaining about it?

Can you prove to me our scouting is lousy compared to those teams? Where has that been proven as fact? Is it tied into how baseball publications have ranked our farm system in the top 10 over the past few years?

And no, we haven't JUST started spending money on the draft.

One could question our ML advanced scouting. Our team does seem ill prepared for certain teams. That's MacPhail's nephew's dept BTW.

And I agree on your second point, our owner hasn't refused to spend money, our GM has, and that's why he has the power he does IMO.

I'd love to know where you get the idea about ML advanced scouting.

[Frobby]

I don't think they are going to crash and burn. But what if Wieters becomes more like a Ramon Hernandez, or Matusz becomes a Randy Wolf.

Not dominant, but solid ML regulars.

Churchill compared Tillman to Gil Meche when he was coming up through the Mariners system, and Meche is hardly a TOR for a competitive team.

So what happens if we have Wolf, Meche and Hernandez instead of Cuellar, Palmer and Piazza?

Unless we have a few home grown all-stars, we aren't going to buy our way to a pennant. Its that simple, because those teams have some very good home grown players and we will NEVER outspend them.

[Moose Milligan]

Unless we have a few home grown all-stars, we aren't going to buy our way to a pennant. Its that simple, because those teams have some very good home grown players and we will NEVER outspend them.

Witness the late 90's Yankees.

[Roll Tide]

I'm reading a lot of hand-wringing posts about what NY and Boston are doing. I say, forget it, and stick with the plan. A couple of years ago Toronto thought they were ready to run with the big boys and spent a ton on Burnett and Ryan in addition to overpaying some of their own players. Where did it get them? And we are much further away than Toronto was then.

When Matusz is a Cy Young candidate and Wieters is an MVP candidate, it will be time to sign some expensive additional pieces. Until then, we should ignore NY and Boston and just let our young guys develop.

I couldnt disagree more... The more they improve their teams the wider the gap gets.

[JTrea81]

Witness the late 90's Yankees.

The same Yankees that brought in David Cone, Roger Clemens, David Wells Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neil, Chuck Knoblauch and Darryl Strawberry to name a few from the outside?,

The homegrown core was Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettite and Rivera. That's pretty much it.

[Roll Tide]

It's what we should have done and its what we did. So why are you complaining about it?

Can you prove to me our scouting is lousy compared to those teams? Where has that been proven as fact? Is it tied into how baseball publications have ranked our farm system in the top 10 over the past few years?

And no, we haven't JUST started spending money on the draft.

I'd love to know where you get the idea about ML advanced scouting.

Thats only your opinion... It is probably shared by many here...But not all mind you & certainly its still your opinion.

[wildbillhiccup]

I'm reading a lot of hand-wringing posts about what NY and Boston are doing. I say, forget it, and stick with the plan. A couple of years ago Toronto thought they were ready to run with the big boys and spent a ton on Burnett and Ryan in addition to overpaying some of their own players. Where did it get them? And we are much further away than Toronto was then.

When Matusz is a Cy Young candidate and Wieters is an MVP candidate, it will be time to sign some expensive additional pieces. Until then, we should ignore NY and Boston and just let our young guys develop.

Sure, I'll ignore Boston and NY for now...and I'll also ignore shelling out money to go see a game for the next few years...and so will the rest of the fans.

Is it fair that the Os have to play in the same division as the two teams in baseball with bottomless pockets? Absolutely not, but you know what? Life isn't fair. You just need to accept the circumstances and find a way to deal with it. That means opening up the checkbook and spending some money. Send a message to the fans that we're not going to stand idally by with the Yanks and Sox restock and reload each year.

[Moose Milligan]

The same Yankees that brought in David Cone, Roger Clemens, David Wells Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neil, Chuck Knoblauch and Darryl Strawberry to name a few from the outside?,

The homegrown core was Jeter, Williams, Posada, Pettite and Rivera. That's pretty much it.

You act like the homegrown core was something to sneeze at.

One of the best SS's of all time, a perennial .300 20+ homer Gold Glover, a good to great catcher, a solid #2 pitcher who has a penchant for big games in the post season and the best closer of all time.

That's pretty much it.