Warehouse Excuses - Nothing Ever Changes!

[TonySoprano]

Who's spinning anything? When have I ever said that MacPhail was on a record pace?

Both of my previous posts were referring to this.

Nobody has rebuilt a crappy franchise into a good one at a faster pace than AM is on. Nobody.[/QUOte]

[olehippi]

All we know is that the Orioles don't really feel that Bell and Snyder are ready for 2010. So the team had to find someone decent to play each position for a while, and MacPhail has kind of done that with Atkins. The Orioles have a serviceable shortstop for 2010. They don't have to have a body to stick there in three months to be able to be able to fill out a lineup card.

We have no way of knowing what he's been doing to address shortstop long-term. Maybe that is his #1 priority, but it's just much easier to find stopgap CIs and closers. Maybe the right deal hasn't lined up yet. I think those kind of things are much more believable than the idea that he's just not looking for a long-term shortstop.

What?!!.....You dare use logic and common sense to defend the use of logic and common sense by MacPhail in rebuilding the Orioles?

Insanity, sir!!.....

[DrungoHazewood]

Both of my previous posts were referring to this.

Oh, ok, sorry.

And I disagree with shack's statement that no one has ever rebuilt a bad team into a good one faster than MacPhail. Maybe if you throw in a huge pile of qualifiers, but on its own the statement is clearly false.

[RShack]

Your history book must have stopped in the 1980s. The Diamondbacks were 65-97 in their first year, 100-62 and in the playoffs in their second year. In their fourth season, they won the world series. They had five straight winning seasons after year one, and three playoff appearances in four years. This was a franchise that started with nothing, no farm system, and a roster of unprotected castaways from around the league.

Andy is 132-191 in two full seasons here. Many projections for 2010 have the team under.500 again.

When the O's become competitive, then the comparisons can happen. Until then, the history books show Andy isn't on a record pace, no matter how much some want to spin otherwise.

Having an owner who starts with a clean sheet of paper and spends himself into oblivion to get a few good seasons is not my idea of taking a crappy franchise and fixing it. Now, maybe it satisfies what you want, that's up to you. But if the D'backs are the best example you can find in baseball history, that alone says something.

As for the idea that you're gonna decide when the comparisons can begin, at least practice what you preach. You've been comparing the situation here to the Twins and the Cubs forever. The idea that you get to make comparisons that suit you, but that nobody else can, well, that's just ridiculous.

Howabout if we take noteworthy examples of franchises that were rebuilt in a way that produced sustained long-term success, and see how long it took them to do it? Who did it the fastest?

[amateurfan]

Having an owner who starts with a clean sheet of paper and spends himself into oblivion to get a few good seasons is not my idea of taking a crappy franchise and fixing it. Now, maybe it satisfies what you want, that's up to you. But if the D'backs are the best example you can find in baseball history, that alone says something.

As for the idea that you're gonna decide when the comparisons can begin, at least practice what you preach. You've been comparing the situation here to the Twins and the Cubs forever. The idea that you get to make comparisons that suit you, but that nobody else can, well, that's just ridiculous.

Howabout if we take noteworthy examples of franchises that were rebuilt in a way that produced sustained long-term success, and see how long it took them to do it? Who did it the fastest?

They won a WS. What do you want? What's better than that? And why wade through all of baseball history when a decage ago a champion was constructed faster than what the current Orioles are experiencing?

[El Gordo]

No it isn't. This is not the only way to do it. Let's consider the alternatives: trade Roberts, sign top international talent for the minor leagues and the majors, draft better. Furthermore, it isn't stupid to dump $18mm into a LF if it allows the team to fill other holes that cannot be filled with $18mm on the FA market or that cannot be acquired in a trade without suitable talent.

The ultra conservative, apologist argument is getting so tiresome. Be more creative.

It's easy to be creative when you don't have to deal with specifics. Give us some names and some trades, that are within the realm of possibilty, then we have something to talk about

[JTrea81]

Having an owner who starts with a clean sheet of paper and spends himself into oblivion to get a few good seasons is not my idea of taking a crappy franchise and fixing it. Now, maybe it satisfies what you want, that's up to you. But if the D'backs are the best example you can find in baseball history, that alone says something.

As for the idea that you're gonna decide when the comparisons can begin, at least practice what you preach. You've been comparing the situation here to the Twins and the Cubs forever. The idea that you get to make comparisons that suit you, but that nobody else can, well, that's just ridiculous.

Howabout if we take noteworthy examples of franchises that were rebuilt in a way that produced sustained long-term success, and see how long it took them to do it? Who did it the fastest?

The New York Yankees - 67-95 in 1990 to 88-74 in 1993 and they've had a winning season ever since.

17 straight winning seasons.

[TonySoprano]

Having an owner who starts with a clean sheet of paper and spends himself into oblivion to get a few good seasons is not my idea of taking a crappy franchise and fixing it. Now, maybe it satisfies what you want, that's up to you. But if the D'backs are the best example you can find in baseball history, that alone says something.

As for the idea that you're gonna decide when the comparisons can begin, at least practice what you preach. You've been comparing the situation here to the Twins and the Cubs forever. The idea that you get to make comparisons that suit you, but that nobody else can, well, that's just ridiculous.

Howabout if we take noteworthy examples of franchises that were rebuilt in a way that produced sustained long-term success, and see how long it took them to do it? Who did it the fastest?

More spin and slight of hand from the ADL (Andy Defense League).

Andy hasn't built long-term success...anywhere. You keep insisting that's a definite to happen here, under harder circumstances.

He stands to start his Orioles career with three straight losing seasons. While you pontificate about "sustained long-term success," wouldn't it help to have at least one successful season under our belt?

[RShack]

They won a WS. What do you want?

I sure as hell don't want the O's to become the dang Marlins. What part of "sustained success" don't you understand?

The idea is that they're good virtually all the time, with only the occasional season when they're not in it.

Do that, and the postseason appearances likely will take care of themselves, more or less...

[RShack]

The New York Yankees - 67-95 in 1990 to 88-74 in 1993 and they've had a winning season ever since.

17 straight winning seasons.

Right. And prior to 1995, they went 13 years without making the post-season, including 8 seasons of 4th place or worse, despite being the richest franchise in baseball. Prior to that, they had a few good seasons when George was butting in. What did that accomplish? Here's what: they went for the longest period in Yankee history without making the postseason. So, the meaningful question here is when did George butt out enough to let people who had an actual baseball clue start rebuilding the franchise the right way?

[hobbycars]

More spin and slight of hand from the ADL (Andy Defense League).

Andy hasn't built long-term success...anywhere. You keep insisting that's a definite to happen here, under harder circumstances.

He stands to start his Orioles career with three straight losing seasons. While you pontificate about "sustained long-term success," wouldn't it help to have at least one successful season under our belt?

I usually agree with you on here, but I think the excessive criticisms of AM are a bit over-the-top.

Look at our past GM's-Roland Helmond and Syd Thrift (his tenure with the O's could possibly go down as the worst of any GM in history).

I don't think AM is a savior, but I certainly do think he is better than anything we have had since Pat Gillick.

Do you truly believe AM has free reign to do whatever he wants? Do you think he really wanted to draft Hobgood? If his reputation is based on the success of the franchise, why wouldn't he want better players?

The answer to that question my friend is the reason this franchise has sucked for over a decade. Don't blame AM because there are more forces at work.

[TonySoprano]

Right. And prior to 1995, they went 13 years without making the post-season, including 8 seasons of 4th place or worse, despite being the richest franchise in baseball. Prior to that, they had a few good seasons when George was butting in. What did that accomplish? Here's what: they went for the longest period in Yankee history without making the postseason. So, the meaningful question here is when did George butt out enough to let people who had an actual baseball clue start rebuilding the franchise the right way?

You're deflecting from the point that turning a lousy franchise around has been done before, and at a faster pace than Andy...IF he ever gets us there.

[amateurfan]

I sure as hell don't want the O's to become the dang Marlins. What part of "sustained success" don't you understand?

The idea is that they're good virtually all the time, with only the occasional season when they're not in it.

Do that, and the postseason appearances likely will take care of themselves, more or less...

I've already stated on the board that I find sustained success boring. I'm not interested in that. Furthermore, nothing about the current situation suggests the Orioles can contend every year. Their spending habits convey that they will not spend money, despite what AM says, in the FA market for real contributors. They have built a good farm system, but not one excellent enough to overcome the better teams in the AL East. They don't invest enough in the international market. AM has done a good job, but that's not enough. They've committed a lot of money to players who aren't contributing to a competitive team. This gets dismissed all the time because it wasn't money the Os spent on FAs. That's wasted money.

Personally, I don't think the Orioles are hurting for money. I don't think signing Holliday hurts their chances of sustained success. What I have a problem with is how they spend their money. There is plenty of evidence over the past three years that suggest the Orioles are not interested in winning so much as winning at their price.

I'd rather win a WS once every 8 years than make the playoffs for eight straight years and not win it at all. Furthermore, it'd be shocking to have a WS champion not make the playoffs in at least two other years.

[RShack]

More spin and slight of hand from the ADL (Andy Defense League).

Andy hasn't built long-term success...anywhere. You keep insisting that's a definite to happen here, under harder circumstances.

He stands to start his Orioles career with three straight losing seasons. While you pontificate about "sustained long-term success," wouldn't it help to have at least one successful season under our belt?

Gee, I thought ADL stood for the Andy Defamation League ;-)

Tell you what... let's deal with the time question first. Let's see if we can agree about what baseball tells us about how long it has taken to rebuild a crappy franchise the right way and produce sustained long-term success after starting with a weak organization. Then, we can put that answer up on the shelf and see how the O's are doing as that timeline comes to pass. How about that?

[SilentJames]

Is MacPhail the the best GM or the worst?

Well it largely falls on where you think the team should be right now. Two years in a row there have been "game-changing" FA's on the market and the last two years the Orioles pursuit of them has been tepid-to-chilly.

Now we can make arguments that none of these game-changers had any intention of coming here and going after them would have been, or in the case of this year is, a waste of time. And those arguments would be right to a point.

However Andy needs to start showing the fans of the team that the Orioles are willing to do what it takes to get in the ring with the big boys. We ARE a mid-market team, that is fiscal reality and anyone who denis that greatly overestimates the greater Baltimore economic base, and Andy has done a commendable job re-habbing a troubled organization in a fairly short amount of time with some key moves.

People see that, and they get that. And we all think that is wonderful. We all know the plan but the time is quickly coming that we are going to need to see the fruits of that labor. I believe that we will start seeing it the summer with the development of the young pitchers et al. But if you are not of that mindset you will question every move that gets made.