International FAILURES Continue...

[Stotle]

I would kick a human baby to be able to find a google image of Tracy Morgan as Star Jones right now. Alas, google is letting me down.

I see your Star Jones

and raise you an Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer:

[hoosiers]

Where the disagreement comes in is how do we balance the praise of the steps that have been made with the criticisms of the steps that still need to be made?

This would be a nice discussion indeed if the emotion could be taken out of argument of the folks looking to pound our FO over this small Dominican League.

Remember, AM asked for a pass on the international front in his first year as he surveyed the market.

[hoosiers]

The BA cover article is about the Twins international prospecting.

While many here berate our FO for being outgunned internationally by the small market Twins, the article shows quite clearly that the Twins have been one of the most aggressive franchises in MLB on this front for a long time.

In some situations, the article notes that ownership has stepped an provided $ - like for Sano.

We appear to be miles and miles behind the Twins in this area. Hopefully, we can catch up sooner than later, but the Minn effort internationally is not really an appropriate comparison for where the Os are right now.

[NCRaven]

FWIW, my take on Stockstill's comment is that this new league is just one of many opportunties to find talent in the DR. And, they use their resources to cover as many of these opportunties or venues as possible. So that probably means that they don't have a dedicated DPL scout who's there every day and unless this league has a monopoly on Dominican prospects, they probably shouldn't.

Should the O's have a more significant presense in the DR? Sure they should. Is this one of about a hundred overblown, really ridiculously over the top, issues that we find here on the Hangout every year? Yup.

[Mackus]

FWIW, my take on Stockstill's comment is that this new league is just one of many opportunties to find talent in the DR. And, they use their resources to cover as many of these opportunties or venues as possible. So that probably means that they don't have a dedicated DPL scout who's there every day and unless this league has a monopoly on Dominican prospects, they probably shouldn't.

Should they O's have a more significant presense in the DR? Sure they should. Is this one of about a hundred overblown, really ridiculously over the top, issues that we find here on the Hangout every year? Yup.

I could agree with most of your post except for the bolded part.

This is a very important issue, the Dominican scouting, and the Orioles have sucked at it for years. I think the tendency to believe anything bad that is reported about their efforts there is justified. The burden of proof is on the Orioles to show us that they are doing better down there. Them just saying "things are getting better" is absolutely meaningless.

[Lucky Jim]

I could agree with most of your post except for the bolded part.

This is a very important issue, the Dominican scouting, and the Orioles have sucked at it for years. I think the tendency to believe anything bad that is reported about their efforts there is justified. The burden of proof is on the Orioles to show us that they are doing better down there. Them just saying "things are getting better" is absolutely meaningless.

Well, clearly they are doing better, right? Hiring Alou. Building a complex. Adding scouts. Those are tangible moves, no? So the question is, how much more do they need to have done, now, to buy a little patience?

You haven't answered my corruption question either, btw.

[wickedwitch]

I was going to post this about 10 different times in this thread. We are a top 10 farm system and have invested a FRACTION of what others do internationally.

What does this say about the return most teams are enjoying on their international investments? Not much.

Or their US draft performance? Not much.

The Orioles have had better draft slots than the vast majority of teams.

[alexei606]

The BA cover article is about the Twins international prospecting.

While many here berate our FO for being outgunned internationally by the small market Twins, the article shows quite clearly that the Twins have been one of the most aggressive franchises in MLB on this front for a long time.

In some situations, the article notes that ownership has stepped an provided $ - like for Sano.

We appear to be miles and miles behind the Twins in this area. Hopefully, we can catch up sooner than later, but the Minn effort internationally is not really an appropriate comparison for where the Os are right now.

Yes, it is true that the article states that the Twins have been the most aggressive in International signings almost every where but not so much in Latin America and particularly in the Dominican Republic:

However, the Twins don't have a long, or strong, history in the Dominican Republic. The organization was a late comer to the Caribbean country and didn't open an academy there until 2003, when it took over the complex previously shared by the Diamondbacks and Blue Jays.

Longtime Twins international scouting coordinator Howard Norsetter—who signed both Koskie and Morneau—estimates that the organization's best Dominican signee ever was probably Enrique Wilson, whom the Twins inked back in 1992. He never reached the majors with the Twins, having been traded two years later.

In recent years, the Twins' most significant players developed from the Dominican are righthander Julio DePaula, who gave up 20 runs in 20 innings for Minnesota in 2007; and shortstop Estarlin de los Santos, who is currently on the 40-man roster but has yet to play above Class A.

Further, the Twins just began their real effort in 2007:

Front office veteran Mike Radcliff made it a goal to change that when he was promoted from scouting director to vice president of player personnel after longtime general manager Terry Ryan stepped down in 2007 to take an advisory role with the organization. Ryan's successor, Bill Smith, had helped get the organization set up with its new academy, and the club had maintained a solid footing in Venezuela. Radcliff had become more involved in Latin America toward the end of his scouting director tenure, and the Twins wanted to become more involved in the Dominican specifically, including hiring Fred Guerrero as the organization's top scout in the country. He's the son of former Blue Jays and Brewers scout Epy Guerrero.

Finally, there is this on Sano:

Then there's Miguel Sano, the top-rated international prospect coming into the summer, who appeared to be headed to the Pirates before negotiations broke down. The Twins, who already had spent most of their international budget on German outfielder Max Kepler and Dominican shortstop Jorge Polanco, had been involved with Sano and were able to move in when the Pirates weren't able to close the deal.

The Twins at one time wouldn't go over $1 million for Miguel Cabrera, who eventually signed with the Marlins for $1.9 million. A decade later, Minnesota gave Sano the second-largest signing bonus in franchise history (behind only Joe Mauer), signing him for $3.15 million.

The Twins made the right moves in a very fast manner (two years) and were able to get Sano when the Pirates faltered. This is indeed the model, IMO, that the Orioles should be following. Two years for McPhail - there should be more to show than just Uehara and Tanaka, adding one more scout and Alou. I'm saying that at least some six figure signings which is pretty routine for the Rays would show real improvement.

[Stotle]

Yes, it is true that the article states that the Twins have been the most aggressive in International signings almost every where but not so much in Latin America and particularly in the Dominican Republic:

Further, the Twins just began their real effort in 2007:

Finally, there is this on Sano:

The Twins made the right moves in a very fast manner (two years) and were able to get Sano when the Pirates faltered. This is indeed the model, IMO, that the Orioles should be following. Two years for McPhail - there should be more to show than just Uehara and Tanaka.

Interesting -- thanks for posting.

[Mackus]

Well, clearly they are doing better, right? Hiring Alou. Building a complex. Adding scouts. Those are tangible moves, no? So the question is, how much more do they need to have done, now, to buy a little patience?

You haven't answered my corruption question either, btw.

I don't know what it would take for me to buy patience. And its not that I'm impatient exactly, its just that I'd like to have a better idea and understanding of what they are doing. I'd like to know why it takes so long to get set up there. Their past history of ineptitude causes great skepticism when I hear things like "we're working hard but it takes a while to get established". Why does it take so long? I'm willing to believe reasonable answers, but I'm not willing to just believe their word that it does take a long time. I don't think they've earned that trust when it comes to DR scouting.

Compare it to the US Draft. They've earned my trust there. I trust Jordan and Co when they say Hobgood and $2-3M to spend on overslots later is better than Matzek.

Its been a long thread, what was the corruption question?

[Tony-OH]

Well, clearly they are doing better, right? Hiring Alou. Building a complex. Adding scouts. Those are tangible moves, no? So the question is, how much more do they need to have done, now, to buy a little patience?

You haven't answered my corruption question either, btw.

Here's a question you should ask. Who are the scouts who have been in the DR and where are they now? Are they in the same positions? If we are adding DR scouts, who are they and are they an extension of the guys who have brought in so little talent over the years or are they guys who have a track record with other organizations or brand new guys?

[TiredofLosing20]

Here's a question you should ask. Who are the scouts who have been in the DR and where are they now? Are they in the same positions? If we are adding DR scouts, who are they and are they an extension of the guys who have brought in so little talent over the years or are they guys who have a track record with other organizations or brand new guys?

Ugh... My suspicion is that you know the answer to this which is why you have said it is the question that we should ask.

That doesn't sound good.

[Lucky Jim]

Its been a long thread, what was the corruption question?

The point is that a slow growth process in terms of scouts in the DR is proper in the light of the deep-seated scandals and corruption that are endemic. See: Bowden/Rijo.

Going slow is a way of making sure you don't make big mistakes.

[Lucky Jim]

Here's a question you should ask. Who are the scouts who have been in the DR and where are they now? Are they in the same positions? If we are adding DR scouts, who are they and are they an extension of the guys who have brought in so little talent over the years or are they guys who have a track record with other organizations or brand new guys?

Excellent questions, all. I'm not sure who I'm supposed to ask, though.

Seriously, though, Roch's quote implied new faces. I've got no idea who those new faces are.

[Mackus]

The point is that a slow growth process in terms of scouts in the DR is proper in the light of the deep-seated scandals and corruption that are endemic. See: Bowden/Rijo.

Going slow is a way of making sure you don't make big mistakes.

Ok, I'm fine with that. But if you're gonna take your time developing scouts who you hope can find the less expensive gems that others can't find, why not throw some money around at the bigger guys who everybody knows in the interim?

If eventually you're gonna be spending $3M a year in the DR, but ultimately your goal is to have good scouts who can find promising but under-known players and sign maybe 5-20 of them for that $3M, while you are training those guys, why not sign 1-3 of the $1M+ guys that are better known and more visible. You can bring your US scouts down for a week or two to look at the big money, higher visibility guys, and spend that money there. Then, once you trust your scouts to be able to find bargains, then revert back to that plan.