Is MacPhail the right GM to take this team to the next level?

[Moose Milligan]

Actually that's almost exactly what happened. With rising FA salaries, clubs realized just how valuable that young talent was.

It wasn't just in 2009, but over the past few years teams have been holding on to their young talented players and pretty much have only been trading them for premium established veterans to put their club over the top.

You just won't see those types of deals like the Cubs got. I will say that there will be deals will be for a prospect that a team has run out of patience with or is out of options, like a Felix Pie.

That hardly describes what Lee was to the Marlins or what Ramirez was for the Pirates. Both had several years of ML success.

So...why can't we value our young players like other teams?

We're definitely NOT a premium, established veteran away from being "over the top," as we just won 69 games.

[Sports Guy]

See: Erik Bedard for : Adam Jones, Chris Tillman, George Sherrill, Kam Mickolio, and Tony Buttler.

also of note: George Sherril for: Josh Bell and Steve Johnson

I really don't understand the logic behind this post at all...:scratchchinhmm:

Thats false, to say that across the board, you just can't pull those deals off anymore.

What'd we get back for Bedard? What'd we get back for Olson? What'd we get back for Tejada?

Actually, Jtrea is right...Most of the players you are bringing up weren't established guys...They were prospects.

What Trea and myself are talking about are established young, cheap stars.

How many of those guys are being dealt nowadays and how many of those guys can you get for packages like AM gave up for ARam and Lee?

The answer is likely none...AM "picked on" 2 organizations with no money and while you can still do that, teams are seemingly smarter now than they were before when it comes to this type of a thing.

[JTrea81]

So...why can't we value our young players like other teams?

We're definitely NOT a premium, established veteran away from being "over the top," as we just won 69 games.

We have. We locked up Markakis and will likely try lock up Jones IMO.

I've never said we are one player away, rather we need to build our team and add difference making talent when we can otherwise we'll never get to the point where we are just one player away.

[Moose Milligan]

Actually, Jtrea is right...Most of the players you are bringing up weren't established guys...They were prospects.

What Trea and myself are talking about are established young, cheap stars.

How many of those guys are being dealt nowadays and how many of those guys can you get for packages like AM gave up for ARam and Lee?

The answer is likely none...AM "picked on" 2 organizations with no money and while you can still do that, teams are seemingly smarter now than they were before when it comes to this type of a thing.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Thing is, your last sentence...AM picked on 2 organizations with no money. I don't those scenarios will go away anytime soon. You're still going to have your teams that will have young players that you can pick on. I can see where they might try to hold onto players for longer, but I could see where a KC could be (dumb enough) to trade a Billy Butler.

As long as MLB doesn't have a salary cap/floor of sorts in place, there will always be the haves and have nots.

[TonySoprano]

OK, I'll bite...not all faith need be "blind" faith. I have faith in myself, i have faith in our legal system (most of the time;) ), I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow......

I also have faith in a higher being, a God (apologies for getting religious here). And yes, it is said that if i have faith in God, then I need have a certain faith, though belief is the better word in this latter case, in the bad dude down below....

See a difference?

I know you know the answer Shack.

Either way, it still is about EC:D

<img src=http://blogs.msg.com/themonitor/images/2008/02/27/claptongod_2.jpg></img>

[Sports Guy]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Thing is, your last sentence...AM picked on 2 organizations with no money. I don't those scenarios will go away anytime soon. You're still going to have your teams that will have young players that you can pick on. I can see where they might try to hold onto players for longer, but I could see where a KC could be (dumb enough) to trade a Billy Butler.

As long as MLB doesn't have a salary cap/floor of sorts in place, there will always be the haves and have nots.

Oh, I have no doubt those guys will be available...Where my doubts lie are with AM pulling the trigger on trading 3 or 4 of his young players to get one of those guys.

[Moose Milligan]

We have. We locked up Markakis and will likely try lock up Jones IMO.

I've never said we are one player away, rather we need to build our team and add difference making talent when we can otherwise we'll never get to the point where we are just one player away.

Why can't we take stock after this year after our situation has become a bit more clear and look at who we should lock up in addition to Jones?

You've never said we are one player away, but you have certainly acted like the sky has been falling in quite a few different cases.

As far as baseball goes, I really don't think you can ever be "one player" away, unless you're talking about a front-line TOR starter. A batter only gets 4, maybe 5 at bats to make their impression felt over the course of a game.

This isn't basketball where a great point guard or center gets to handle the ball on almost every possession down the court. This isn't football where a great quarterback or running back can make great game changing plays. A quarterback gets anywhere from 25 to 30 opportunities to make their impression felt in a game, a running back gets 20-25 carries.

Baseball is vastly different.

[Moose Milligan]

Oh, I have no doubt those guys will be available...Where my doubts lie are with AM pulling the trigger on trading 3 or 4 of his young players to get one of those guys.

I can see that.

Dunno, SG. I just don't think it's realistic for AM to be all over EVERY opportunity...and I guess that's where I kinda throw my hands up at the "strongly questioning" to "anti MacPhail" crowds. We love to sit here and say "he should have been in on this!! why weren't we in on this???"

Some of those instances are warranted, some are over the top. It's just impossible to be everywhere at once, taking every opportunity you can get. That's not just for MacPhail, that's just for everyone in every day life.

Can he get better at it? Probably. But really, the hyperbole here of missing out on every single little thing that WE (the loyal OH) would like to do is just tiresome.

[Sports Guy]

I can see that.

Dunno, SG. I just don't think it's realistic for AM to be all over EVERY opportunity...and I guess that's where I kinda throw my hands up at the "strongly questioning" to "anti MacPhail" crowds. We love to sit here and say "he should have been in on this!! why weren't we in on this???"

Some of those instances are warranted, some are over the top. It's just impossible to be everywhere at once, taking every opportunity you can get. That's not just for MacPhail, that's just for everyone in every day life.

Can he get better at it? Probably. But really, the hyperbole here of missing out on every single little thing that WE (the loyal OH) would like to do is just tiresome.

How about being in on one oppurtunity?

Trading Bedard was easy....He had a known commodity that was healthy, proven, cheap and under control for a few seasons...Its a whole lot easier to trade a guy like that than to trade for a guy like that.

Don't get me wrong, he has done great with his trades...He has done a great job of putting us in position to where we need those last few pieces to put us over the top....My doubt lies in the area of him putting us over the top...I see nothing in his history or in what he values that says, he will make those moves.

[Moose Milligan]

How about being in on one oppurtunity?

Trading Bedard was easy....He had a known commodity that was healthy, proven, cheap and under control for a few seasons...Its a whole lot easier to trade a guy like that than to trade for a guy like that.

Don't get me wrong, he has done great with his trades...He has done a great job of putting us in position to where we need those last few pieces to put us over the top....My doubt lies in the area of him putting us over the top...I see nothing in his history or in what he values that says, he will make those moves.

Sure, I'd like to be in on one opportunity.

See, I'm of the mind that...we're at 69 wins. We need to be able to crawl before we can walk. I'll worry about getting us "over the top" when we're closer in the win column...85-88 wins? THAT'S when I might join you and El Trea and the rest on your crusade.

I think we have a FANTASTIC shot of getting there with what he's done so far...but as you and I can both agree on, a lot has to go right for us to even get to that next level. That's why you and I and everyone else are so excited for this season.

I understand why you have your doubts, I really and truly do. I've read the posts, I've seen the evidence...but I really refuse to believe that a man as smart as him can just simply "max out" as GM, that he's reached some sort of ceiling.

Maybe someone (not me, I'm too lazy and wouldn't know where to start) should look up a history of GM's and see the ones who've fit similar profiles as evidence that a GM can, indeed, evolve over time and get better and more competent at their job.

[hoosiers]

I think JT asks a legit question, but I could care less that AM has not accomplished the things he is badgered for in the OP. I also know the criticisms that existed regarding what AM supposedly could and could not do two years ago and about all of that criticism has now been show to have been, shall we say, misguided.

AM has done a masterful job re-building the talent base of this organization and regarding whether AM can sign a premier FA or trade four quality prospects for an all star level player to take the Os to legit contender status, we'll have to see how that plays out.

Based on AM success in the rebuilding phase and the two WS rings he owns, I think he deserves the opportunity to do it.

[Jeff Spicoli]

I voted "Not Sure". Up until this offseason, I was very happy with AM. But, as good as the Bedard trade was, its not enough. I think the Tejada trade was ok, but overrated imo. The jury is still out on Josh Bell.

To me, MacPhails strength, may also be his weakness. And by that, I mean his ability to be patient. It works in trades, to maximize the return. But, his patient approach when it comes to FA isn't cutting it. If you have a target, why sit back and wait? To be fair, there wasn't much in way of free agents, but I think we let a few trade opportunities pass by. Like JJ Hardy and Javier Vazquez. And I think we should be looking into Alex Gordon.

I'm just not confident if and when the time comes we are ready to sign a big name, that AM can go for the kill, and not just set back and wait for the market to come to him. I hope he proves me wrong.

This coming season will tell a lot. If the O's aren't close to .500, it may be time to go in another direction as far as GM's go. I'd be ok with 80-82 wins this year. Another 65-70 win season won't cut it. I'd be scouting the Red Sox front office for the next wonder-boy GM in that case.

[Dipper9]

We have. We locked up Markakis and will likely try lock up Jones IMO.

I've never said we are one player away, rather we need to build our team and add difference making talent when we can otherwise we'll never get to the point where we are just one player away.

I am in agreement with Trea here. The argument for not going hard after free agents is that "we are not one player away." However, if youy never sign anyone, we will NEVER be one player away.

Case in point. Let's say we did in fact go all in on the JTrea WOW 8/233 offer he kept preaching last year. And lets say we matched Burnett's offer and he somehow took his wife's hometown Orioles over the Yanks. Those two players alone would not have done squat for us last year...perhaps a 3rd place finish. But...now its the offseason of this year, and we make all the same moves we did, plus convince Holliday to come here. Now we go out and get Bedard and resign Hendrickson. Hmmm...

2b: Roberts

RF: Markakis

LF: Holliday

1B: Teixeira

CF: Jones

C: Wieters

3B: Atkins

DH: Scott/Reimold

SS: Izzy

Bench: Scott/Reimold, Wiggy, Pie, Moeller

Rotation: Burnett, Millwood, Guts, Bergeson, Matusz (Bedard and Tillman laying in the weeds waiting)

Bullpen: Gonzalez, Johnson, Uehara, Mickolio, Hendrickson, Tillman, (pick your 7th guy)

That is a AL East contender! That is why we have have to make moves when the chance is there. I hate to continually rehash the Tex saga, but not signing Tex and going hard after Burnett set this rebuild back another 2-3 years.

[Hank Scorpio]

Actually, Jtrea is right...Most of the players you are bringing up weren't established guys...They were prospects.

What Trea and myself are talking about are established young, cheap stars.

How many of those guys are being dealt nowadays and how many of those guys can you get for packages like AM gave up for ARam and Lee?

The answer is likely none...AM "picked on" 2 organizations with no money and while you can still do that, teams are seemingly smarter now than they were before when it comes to this type of a thing.

This is why it's important to have talented scouts.

But it's definitely not a new practice. Sizemore himself was traded before Mr. Shapiro extended him.

[TinCup]

See, thing is you have your "pro" AM folks, and you have your "anti" AM folks.

That makes everything right in the world. It's elementary. I mean imagine if nobody thought poorly of AM!

More seriously, for me, it all gets back to whether or not the O's will continue to march along passing themselves off as a small mid-market team, with a limited payroll, hoping for all the stars to align for just one year. Or, will this team ever say, "hey, we are going to be one of the big dogs too, not the Yankees mind you, but a big dog nonetheless". I agree we don't want to and should not try to leap up overnight to such a payroll stratosphere, but we can't expect to be consistently better and winning while operating on the cheap. There needs to be more money infused into the entire organization and then sustained. For me, that is elementary too.