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It really amazes me that people can't grasp this.

Reasons for Tillman not to be on OD roster, in the rotation:

1) Hurt

2) Mechanics so out of whack, he has to be sent down.

3) poor conditioning..potentially leading to #2 and/or awful performance

That's it...and they are all extreme.

If he pitches in ST(IN A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE!!!) like he did in 2009...ie inconsistent, 5ish ERA, etc....he absolutely, without question, should be one of the 5 starters.

I am ok with giving the guy the job because he has the most upside. If the Orioles were going to do that then why say that the fifth starter position was an open competition? The reason they said it was because it is an open competition and I would put the odds at 50/50 that Tillman starts the season with the club IMO.

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I am ok with giving the guy the job because he has the most upside. If the Orioles were going to do that then why say that the fifth starter position was an open competition? The reason they said it was because it is an open competition and I would put the odds at 50/50 that Tillman starts the season with the club IMO.

You may very well be right...but that isn't because the Orioles have made some great, well thought out decision...It will just continue to show that ineptitude still exists in this organization.

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1. "Good teams" don't do this because "good teams" are competing and need to get maximum performance from each component. It's why we got Felix Pie for cheap. "Good teams" that are in a down moment - likes, say, the A's - absolutely put upside youth in their rotation.

2. This is ridiculous. Step back and take a look at your logic. A. This is no harm no foul. B. If there is a foul, well, then the problem is Tillman. Ergo, there's no problem with my plan. That's the kind of reasoning you hear in Congress.

So what damage is done by starting Tillman in AAA after pitching half season in the majors?

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There is a lot more to pitching than giving up homers...i am not sure you realize that or not.

Tillman is CLEARLY one of our 5 best starters...its not even a debate.

If we are talking about upside then Tillman is probably our second best pitcher. if we are talking about on field performance then I think there is a argument to be made there.

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So it makes zero sense that the guys you mentioned all kept their ERA under 4and you are comparing them to Tillman who had an ERA around 5.50 last season while struggling with his control? If Tillman can give up that many homeruns and keep his ERA under 4 then sign me up for those numbers. If the argument is that you can give up a lot of bombs and still put up good numbers then I can easily agree with that as well. I do not understand what the big deal with Tillman starting the season in the minors is all about. he still gets to pitch everyday and he is what, 22? The only way Tillman starts the season in the minors is if Andy MacPhail thinks he needs to. If the Orioles are looking at bringing in Wang or Washburn who do you think is the odd man out if one of them performs well.

My point was giving up HRs isn't that big of a deal. There are many, many good pitchers that are in the top of the league in HRs. Whether Tillman gives up a lot of HRs or not, he can still be a good MLB pitcher.

Also Tillman did not give up a lot of HRs the past two years in MILB, so Tillman may not even give up much HRs in the bigs.

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I think we can both agree that teams look at things other than stats to see if a guy is ready. Tillman seemed wild at the major league level, but that can change. He also seemed to get the ball up in the zone a bit and I think that led to the gaufy homerun totals. I think Tillman's success like many other pitchers in the league is tied to control, not velocity or "stuff". If I was going to trade a pitcher at this point for an established first baseman I think Tillman would be that guy for me, but I hope I am wrong about him.

I think this is a common sentiment, but we see that it isn't true all the time. If your stuff is good enough, you can get by with inconsistent command. The reigning back-to-back NL Cy Young winner is an extreme example of that. Tillman isn't Lincy, but he needs to learn in action what he can and cannot get away with. He isn't going to do that at the AAA level. Look a what Lincecum looked like over about a two month span in his first season -- it was ugly. But he had a little under a season to learn about pitching to ML hitters, feel the pains/drain of a ML season. He came back the next year and won a Cy. At some point, unless things are a mess mechaniclly or from a confidence perspective, you have to let a stud prospect go out there and get it. The message I want to send is "You're our guy, so keep at it!" Maybe I'm not so patient with a pitcher a tier or two down in the pecking order, but if I'm BAL I want Tillman to have every opportunity to become a front-ender on my team.

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No, Buchholz was given a very long ML audition before things fell apart andit became obvious he wasn't going to be able to sort out his issues at the ML level. BOS went out in the off-season and signed some depth to give him the needed time a AAA. His development wasn't stunted simply to give another young player a shot due to better spring training.

I agree you earn your spot, and Tillman has clearly done that with his performance over a couple of years -- barring disaster spring training shouldn't be heavily weighed.

Tillman has earned his minor league numbers like Buchholz. He hasn't done squat at the ML level except for show up. I think Tillman will be in AAA at some point in 2010 even if he starts the year with the big club and the Orioles will not be a bad organization for sending him down. If we are going to preach accountability then it must be there for everyone including our premium talent guys.

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Tillman has earned his minor league numbers like Buchholz. He hasn't done squat at the ML level except for show up. I think Tillman will be in AAA at some point in 2010 even if he starts the year with the big club and the Orioles will not be a bad organization for sending him down. If we are going to preach accountability then it must be there for everyone including our premium talent guys.

That's fine that this is your opinion. But I think it's a terrible approach to handling the transition from AAA to ML for top prospects.

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My point was giving up HRs isn't that big of a deal. There are many, many good pitchers that are in the top of the league in HRs. Whether Tillman gives up a lot of HRs or not, he can still be a good MLB pitcher.

Also Tillman did not give up a lot of HRs the past two years in MILB, so Tillman may not even give up much HRs in the bigs.

That is true but even with good stuff you can not have poor control and give up a lot of homeruns. I saw nothing from Tillman in 2009 that should make him a set in stone #5 starter. That being said I am ok with the guy getting the benefit of the doubt his minor league numbers warrant such a move.

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That is true but even with good stuff you can not have poor control and give up a lot of homeruns. I saw nothing from Tillman in 2009 that should make him a set in stone #5 starter. That being said I am ok with the guy getting the benefit of the doubt his minor league numbers warrant such a move.

Honestly I don't care what you saw. The O's FO saw something that deserved him to get promoted last season. I saw something that has me believe he is our best pitcher RIGHT NOW.

I would be extremely disappointed if somehow Tillman didn't make the team. I actually didn't even think it was a possibility until these threads started to show up.

I am starting to again think it isn't possible for Tillman not to be on the roster.

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Honestly I don't care what you saw. The O's FO saw something that deserved him to get promoted last season. I saw something that has me believe he is our best pitcher RIGHT NOW.

I would be extremely disappointed if somehow Tillman didn't make the team. I actually didn't even think it was a possibility until these threads started to show up.

I am starting to again think it isn't possible for Tillman not to be on the roster.

1.) They saw a depleted starting staff. Even Andy MacPhail said that Tillman was called up too early. If Bergesen didn't got down then you wouldn't have seen Tillman as early or at all. Not a very good argument. Matusz is far and away the best pitcher on our staff. He has three pitches that grade as plus and another than grade as potential plus. Tillman has a plus curve and fastball.

2.) I would be disappointed as well as that would mean that the guy didn't earn it even if the Orioles wanted to give him the job. On a side note, the Orioles are rumored to be talking to Wang and/or Washburn which means they are looking for ML pitching depth. Tillman seems like the logical guy to be pushed out of the rotation. If I wouldn't have read those reports I would have assumed that Tillman was our guy no matter how he performed.

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