Frank Thomas retiring

[Moose Milligan]

How am I ignoring that at all? I'm flat out saying it!

It's just obvious that this isn't a case of writers going "we'll let the DH thing slide with these guys, but not Edgar." It's an issue of Frank just being easily better and Molitor having over 3,000 hits while Edgar has poor counting stats for a HOF'er along with the lack of defensive value.

I'm have not said anything to dispute your last coment and I don't think Jim Rice should be in, but at the same time, he was viewed as the most feared hitter in the league for a time, was an MVP, and led the league in hr's 3 times. You can't say any of that about Edgar, and that's something that right or wrong, the writers put a lot of stock in.

That's what I am saying...I'm saying that's the very case. As someone who spent practically his entire career as a DH they are automatically writing him off. Yet Thomas and Molitor's time as a DH allowed them to get their milestone numbers and Cooperstown status. If you're going to hold Edgars career as a DH against him, why not hold Thomas and Molitors performances as a DH against them?

Martinez wasn't viewed as the most feared hitter, never won an MVP never lead the league in homers but he did:

-Win 5 silver sluggers (one as a third baseman)

-Lead the league in batting average twice, placed in the top 10 fiveother times

-Lead the league in on base percentage three times, and was runner up three times as well

-Lead the league in OPS once, finished in the top 10 eight times

-Lead the league in runs scored once

-Lead the league in doubles twice

-Lead the league in RBI once

-Lead the league in runs created once

and a bunch of other stuff. He routinely finished in the top 10 every year in major statistical categories.

No one elected Rice because of his glove, either.

[mweb]

That's what I am saying...I'm saying that's the very case. As someone who spent practically his entire career as a DH they are automatically writing him off. Yet Thomas and Molitor's time as a DH allowed them to get their milestone numbers and Cooperstown status. If you're going to hold Edgars career as a DH against him, why not hold Thomas and Molitors performances as a DH against them?

Martinez wasn't viewed as the most feared hitter, never won an MVP never lead the league in homers but he did:

-Win 5 silver sluggers (one as a third baseman)

-Lead the league in batting average twice, placed in the top 10 fiveother times

-Lead the league in on base percentage three times, and was runner up three times as well

-Lead the league in OPS once, finished in the top 10 eight times

-Lead the league in runs scored once

-Lead the league in doubles twice

-Lead the league in RBI once

-Lead the league in runs created once

and a bunch of other stuff. He routinely finished in the top 10 every year in major statistical categories.

No one elected Rice because of his glove, either.

To be clear, you're saying that they are saying what I'm saying they aren't, right?

Once again, they can be holding the DH against all 3 guys equally despite the difference in time at DH, and it makes plenty of sense for them to come to the conclusion that Frank and Molitor are HOF'ers and Edgar isn't. At least if you view how they traditionally vote. There is no hypocrisy here.

Those are great things for Edgar, and again, I'm not arguing that he shouldn't be in the HOF.

[Moose Milligan]

To be clear, you're saying that they are saying what I'm saying they aren't, right?

Once again, they can be holding the DH against all 3 guys equally despite the difference in time at DH, and it makes plenty of sense for them to come to the conclusion that Frank and Molitor are HOF'ers and Edgar isn't. At least if you view how they traditionally vote. There is no hypocrisy here.

Those are great things for Edgar, and again, I'm not arguing that he shouldn't be in the HOF.

Uhh...I think so. haha

Edgar Martinez used the DH to compile a great career. Thomas and Molitor used the DH to compile great stats to get to the HoF. There is a difference in time spent at DH but to me that's semantics, it doesn't matter. They all used the DH to do great things and prolong their careers, all to extreme degrees.

I see that as a double standard.

[mweb]

Uhh...I think so. haha

Edgar Martinez used the DH to compile a great career. Thomas and Molitor used the DH to compile great stats to get to the HoF. There is a difference in time spent at DH but to me that's semantics, it doesn't matter. They all used the DH to do great things and prolong their careers, all to extreme degrees.

I see that as a double standard.

Your main paragraph here is fine except the part where you say it doesn't matter, it clearly does when you look at Molitor's case because he actually had defensive value, but again, that is not a big deal to my point.

Ok, so it's a double standard when two guys who meet the HOF voters criteria for making the HOF are elected, but a guy who also was a DH doesn't get voted in because he fails to meet their criteria for reasons other than playing DH? Odd.

[Moose Milligan]

Your main paragraph here is fine except the part where you say it doesn't matter, it clearly does when you look at Molitor's case because he actually had defensive value, but again, that is not a big deal to my point.

Molitor did have defensive value but as I pointed out before he picked up nearly as many as plate appearances as a DH as he did when he was playing in the field. Roughly half of his plate appearances came as a DH. Let's stop pretending that he made it into the HoF because he played in the field...he made it because he was able to tack on an additional 1,456 hits as a DH.

Ok, so it's a double standard when two guys who meet the HOF voters criteria for making the HOF are elected, but a guy who also was a DH doesn't get voted in because he fails to meet their criteria for reasons other than playing DH? Odd.

I can't be any clearer than how crystal clear I am being:

It is a double standard when two guys meet HoF milestone criteria...meet that criteria by spending huge portions of their careers as a DH...and then hold it against someone for making a stellar, shorter career as a DH.

Thomas and Molitor compiled great stats. Great, good for them. They used the DH to get there. Without the DH, there's no chance that either of them compile their great stats and make the HoF.

In other words:

But here's an even more important point: In 2004, the same voters who will be voting for Edgar Martinez voted Paul Molitor into the Hall of Fame. Molitor played more than 1,000 games at DH and made the Hall of Fame in large part because he surpassed the 3,000-hit barrier. If Molitor had finished with 2,900 hits, his Hall of Fame case becomes much more debatable. The DH role certainly helped extend his career (he spent his final eight seasons as a DH). Ergo, without those 1,000 games played as a DH, it's likely that Paul Molitor would not be in Cooperstown.

Thus, if a voter voted for Molitor, the rationale of not voting for Edgar because he's a DH doesn't wash.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof10/news/story?id=4755544

Again, I see it as a double standard that...someone who was pretty much an exclusive throughout his entire career is being penalized because of the very tool that allowed him to play and dominate...when Thomas and Molitor used the same tool to get to the HoF.

In other words if you're going to hold it against Martinez for being a DH, it makes sense to hold it against Thomas and Molitor for spending giant chunks of their career as DH's. If you're gonna be biased, be biased every time.

You seem to be taking the most umbrage with the fact that Edgar Martinez didn't compile the milestone stats that Thomas and Molitor did. However there's no possible way he could have simply because his career wasn't as long...as mentioned before he started playing full time at age 27. And the HoF voters have not discriminated against guys with short careers, short peaks, or milestone stats.

[RShack]

To be clear, you're saying that they are saying what I'm saying they aren't, right?

That will certainly clear things up, no matter what the answer is...

[mweb]

Molitor did have defensive value but as I pointed out before he picked up nearly as many as plate appearances as a DH as he did when he was playing in the field. Roughly half of his plate appearances came as a DH. Let's stop pretending that he made it into the HoF because he played in the field...he made it because he was able to tack on an additional 1,456 hits as a DH.

Who's pretending? Certainly not me.

I can't be any clearer than how crystal clear I am being:

It is a double standard when two guys meet HoF milestone criteria...meet that criteria by spending huge portions of their careers as a DH...and then hold it against someone for making a stellar, shorter career as a DH.

And I can't be anymore clear than saying that there is nothing to suggest

they're holding it against Edgar anymore than they did or will with Frank or Paul.

Thomas and Molitor compiled great stats. Great, good for them. They used the DH to get there. Without the DH, there's no chance that either of them compile their great stats and make the HoF.

The point is they compiled much better stats, at least to the voters, so again, no way one can conclude there is a double standard. If Edgar had 3,000 hits and/or 500 hr's, he'd get in. Again, it's not the DH stigma keeping him out, although of course it doesn't help, and it didn't help Molitor either, and it won't help Thomas.

Again, I see it as a double standard that...someone who was pretty much an exclusive throughout his entire career is being penalized because of the very tool that allowed him to play and dominate...when Thomas and Molitor used the same tool to get to the HoF.

How can you conclude that he is being penalized anymore than the other guys?

In other words if you're going to hold it against Martinez for being a DH, it makes sense to hold it against Thomas and Molitor for spending giant chunks of their career as DH's. If you're gonna be biased, be biased every time.

Again, how can you conclude that they aren't being biased every time?

You seem to be taking the most umbrage with the fact that Edgar Martinez didn't compile the milestone stats that Thomas and Molitor did. However there's no possible way he could have simply because his career wasn't as long...as mentioned before he started playing full time at age 27. And the HoF voters have not discriminated against guys with short careers, short peaks, or milestone stats

.

Again, I'm not taking umbrage with Edgar's case at all. I'm speaking of what the voters would look at and the clear differences between the cases of Molitor, Thomas, and Martinez other than how many games they played in the field vs DH. And of course HOF voters discriminate against guys with short careers/peaks, just because they voted in Jim Rice and Koufax doesn't change that. It's even more obvious that milestone stats are very important to the voters. That doesn't mean you have to have them, but they make a huge difference. How players were perceived at the the time matters to.

[Pedro Cerrano]

What in God's name are you two arguing about? Frank Thomas deserves to be in the HOF over Edgar Martinez because Thomas played 1B and Martinez was a DH? I think Thomas deserves it because he had better numbers.

[mweb]

BTW, Edgar can obviously still make the HOF. Rice started out with less of a percentage.

[Frobby]

Uhh...I think so. haha

Edgar Martinez used the DH to compile a great career. Thomas and Molitor used the DH to compile great stats to get to the HoF. There is a difference in time spent at DH but to me that's semantics, it doesn't matter. They all used the DH to do great things and prolong their careers, all to extreme degrees.

I see that as a double standard.

If hitting was all that mattered, would Martinez get into the Hall of Fame? Maybe, but I'm not sure.

2247 hits? Eh.

309 homers? Eh.

1261 RBI? Eh.

Edgar is not in the top 100 all-time in any of those key "counting" categories. He's barely in the top 100 for batting average. And these are the classic stats that decide who gets a ticket to the Hall of Fame, even though there are other, perhaps better stats (OPS+ for example) that would show Edgar in a better light.

Thomas, on the other hand, is 18th in HR, 22nd in RBI, 96th in hits. He'd have a much clearer case for the HOF even if he hadn't played 971 mediocre games as a 1B.

[mweb]

What in God's name are you two arguing about? Frank Thomas deserves to be in the HOF over Edgar Martinez because Thomas played 1B and Martinez was a DH? I think Thomas deserves it because he had better numbers.

Umm, that's what I'm saying.

But somehow he thinks if Frank is elected, that means they're putting their bias against DH's aside for him but keeping it for Edgar. I just think it's a matter of one being better than the other, and having the better career stats/milestones.

[Moose Milligan]

Who's pretending? Certainly not me.

And I can't be anymore clear than saying that there is nothing to suggest

they're holding it against Edgar anymore than they did or will with Frank or Paul.

The point is they compiled much better stats, at least to the voters, so again, no way one can conclude there is a double standard. If Edgar had 3,000 hits and/or 500 hr's, he'd get in. Again, it's not the DH stigma keeping him out, although of course it doesn't help, and it didn't help Molitor either, and it won't help Thomas.

How can you conclude that he is being penalized anymore than the other guys?

Again, how can you conclude that they aren't being biased every time?

.

Again, I'm not taking umbrage with Edgar's case at all. I'm speaking of what the voters would look at and the clear differences between the cases of Molitor, Thomas, and Martinez other than how many games they played in the field vs DH. And of course HOF voters discriminate against guys with short careers/peaks, just because they voted in Jim Rice and Koufax doesn't change that. It's even more obvious that milestone stats are very important to the voters. That doesn't mean you have to have them, but they make a huge difference. How players were perceived at the the time matters to.

My head hurts and Jason Campbell sucks. I don't even know what the hell we're arguing about anymore. I can't continue, congrats, you win.

[mweb]

My head hurts and Jason Campbell sucks. I don't even know what the hell we're arguing about anymore. I can't continue, congrats, you win.

Umm, the same thing we have been since the start. Way to crowbar a Jason Campbell sucks into here.

[Moose Milligan]

Way to crowbar a Jason Campbell sucks into here.

I do what I can

[Moose Milligan]

What in God's name are you two arguing about? Frank Thomas deserves to be in the HOF over Edgar Martinez because Thomas played 1B and Martinez was a DH? I think Thomas deserves it because he had better numbers.

Strictly speaking as a DH, Edgar OPS'd at .959 while Thomas OPS'd at .899.