Pie continues to impress

[hoosiers]

Gutierrez was given the greatest and probably best deserved (and inherited!) nickname ever ... "Death to Flying Things".

Someone should dig up the "Matt Murton is better than Gutierrez" discussions of a year or two ago.

[TGO]

He crushed RHP in the Minors and yet struggled against the LHP badly.

I would be trilled if he can give a 700 OPS against LH, but since he couldn't do it in the minors, I doubt he will be able to do it in the majors.

Normally I am all about looking at MiL stats because there are plenty of skills that most guys just will not improve. Walks, for instance. Most guys aren't going to walk more in ML than in MiL. Hitting lefties, however, I think is a skill that can be improved. I think it's likely that in the rush to get a top prospect to the majors, the Cubs said "who cares if he can't hit lefties, we'll just spot sit him and he'll still play against 85% of the pitchers." Now that he is with a less short-sighted and more patient organization, working with a major league hitting coach (who happened to be a LH hitter who could not hit LHP, so I think he probably knows the tricks and nuances of LHPs even if he couldn't hit them himself), he probably has a better shot. He certainly made strides last year.

It wouldn't shock me if held to his MiL line against lefties, but it also wouldn't shock me if he improved significantly.

[TyCobb]

Oh ok....So you don't think players improve as they gain more experience, adjust their approach, etc....?

Gotcha...So I guess Tillman's 5 ERA in single A means he will suck in the majors?

How on earth was Markakis able to muster a 900 OPS in the majors when he had an 850 OPS in the low minors?

My god, he must be the greatest player ever!

I think players can definitely improve. Pie actually got worst against LHP in the minors.

Tillman improved tremendously in the minors.

4.43 FIP in 2005.

3.41 FIP in 2006.

2.76 FIP in 2007.

Markakis hit a high of .879 OPS in 2008 at the age of 24. In 2005 in 124 games he hit .894. That year in AA (123 ABs) he hit .992 OPS as a 21 year old.

Markakis like Tillman actually improved ever year at ever promotion.

2003 A- .768 OPS

2004 A .842 OPS

2005 A+/AA .894 OPS

Pie could definitely hit 750+ OPS against LHP for his career. Just by looking at his career so far, I think it is HIGHLY unlikely he does.

[Frobby]

He hit a minor league line of .249/.303/.362 in 398 ABs.

Here is his minor league seasons against LHP.

2005 .782 OPS

2006 .649 OPS

2007 .547 OPS

2008 .649 OPS

He didn't hit minor league LHPs. I pretty sure he will not hit major league LHP.

I don't dispute that it's a serious concern, based on his track record. Still, I saw a big difference between how he looked in April-June and how he looked in July-September vs. LHP. It's a tiny sample size (he had only 40 total PA vs. LHP last year) so it's hard to draw any grand conclusions, I just feel I saw enough progress to want to give him a bit more exposure to LHP and see how he does. Certainly spring training is a good time for that kind of experimentation.

[TyCobb]

I don't dispute that it's a serious concern, based on his track record. Still, I saw a big difference between how he looked in April-June and how he looked in July-September vs. LHP. It's a tiny sample size (he had only 40 total PA vs. LHP last year) so it's hard to draw any grand conclusions, I just feel I saw enough progress to want to give him a bit more exposure to LHP and see how he does. Certainly spring training is a good time for that kind of experimentation.

I am not against that at all.

Personally I think Reimold should be the starting LFer for the next 6 years. So I would like to give him as much experience in LF as possible. I think Felix should DH in the spring training when Reimold/Jones/Markakis are in the field just to give him as many ABs as possible. If he looks decent against LHP, great. If not, have him work on it some more with the Crow in batting cage before we give him a serious amount of time when the games count.

I saw some nice swings late in the year by Pie too(against RHP/LHP). I just don't think that is the Pie we will see most of the time. This is based on my opinion from watching the games last year.

[Frobby]

I

I saw some nice swings late in the year by Pie too(against RHP/LHP). I just don't think that is the Pie we will see most of the time. This is based on my opinion from watching the games last year.

Well, this is what I want to find out. Did Pie have a 30-40 day hot streak, or has Crowley helped him to develop a fundamentally different approach that will carry over into this season? There's only one way to find out.

[DrungoHazewood]

I knew that's where he got the inherited nickname from, but my god, look at that man's fielding percentage. :eektf:

Ferguson was a good fielder, hence his nickname. Everyone had much lower fielding percentages in that era. In 1871, when Ferguson fielded .774, an average National Association third baseman fielded .670. Brooks Robinson would have had problems fielding .800 without a glove, and on infields that probably wouldn't be up to standards in a good high school league today.

Rynie Wolters, Ferguson's main pitcher on the NY Mutuals in '71, had a 3.43 ERA. And he allowed 283 runs in 283 innings. 62% of his runs allowed were unearned. The NA saw almost 11 runs per team per game, despite a league ERA almost identical to the 2009 National League.

[byrdz]

Why, among all of the young talent, am I most excited to see Pie play? Maybe it's because he's the underdog, but I have high hopes that if used right by DT, he'll turn in a good season.

[DrungoHazewood]

Pie could definitely hit 750+ OPS against LHP for his career. Just by looking at his career so far, I think it is HIGHLY unlikely he does.

I agree. But I think you're overstating the impact of him not doing that. He could certainly have a long, productive career as a regular or semi-regular even if he has a split of, say, .650 against lefties and .850 against righties.

Brady Anderson had a .703 against lefties and had a long, very valuable, very productive career as a regular. He had a number of years like 1998 where he OPS'd .591 against lefties. Curtis Granderson was just acquired by the Yanks to play the outfield every day for them, and his career OPS against lefties is .614.

[TyCobb]

I agree. But I think you're overstating the impact of him not doing that. He could certainly have a long, productive career as a regular or semi-regular even if he has a split of, say, .650 against lefties and .850 against righties.

Brady Anderson had a .703 against lefties and had a long, very valuable, very productive career as a regular. He had a number of years like 1998 where he OPS'd .591 against lefties. Curtis Granderson was just acquired by the Yanks to play the outfield every day for them, and his career OPS against lefties is .614.

Sure that is possible. I personally don't see Pie being a .850 OPS guy (or even a 800 OPS guy) against RHP. I am excited to see how Pie does this spring and early in the MLB season.

[Sports Guy]

Sure that is possible. I personally don't see Pie being a .850 OPS guy (or even a 800 OPS guy) against RHP. I am excited to see how Pie does this spring and early in the MLB season.

You also laughed at the idea of him being a 750 OPS guy last year.

Its also funny how you are quoting all of these stats yet you aren't quoting his overall MiL stats, with the ages and leagues he was in.

[Frobby]

Sure that is possible. I personally don't see Pie being a .850 OPS guy (or even a 800 OPS guy) against RHP.

He was at .789 last year. He was 24 years old, and he's barely had 500 major league AB. I'd bet on him being .800-.850 vs. RHP this year.

[TyCobb]

You also laughed at the idea of him being a 750 OPS guy last year.

Its also funny how you are quoting all of these stats yet you aren't quoting his overall MiL stats, with the ages and leagues he was in.

I was surprised he was able to hit .750 last year. I didn't think he would break a .300 OBP. Pleasantly surprised he actually got a .326 OBP. My thoughts are August was a fluke (.434 wOBA) and September was Pie going back to Earth (.299 wOBA).

I was talking about him not hitting LHP in the minors. I believe I said he "crushed" RHP in one of my post.

[Sports Guy]

I was surprised he was able to hit .750 last year. I didn't think he would break a .300 OBP. Pleasantly surprised he actually got a .326 OBP. My thoughts are August was a fluke (.434 wOBA) and September was Pie going back to Earth (.299 wOBA).

I was talking about him not hitting LHP in the minors. I believe I said he "crushed" RHP in one of my post.

And you feel his injuries in September shouldn't be considered?

[Can_of_corn]

But look at the progress he made throughout the year. He was night and day different in the later part of the season. You're either blind or weren't watching the games if you don't agree with that statement.

Yea, that .616 OPS in July and that .685 in Sept/Oct were really impressive. Pie was molten hot in August last season, no one is denying that. I just think some of us need to see more before handing him a starting job.

With Jones' and Reimold's injury histories I fully expect Pie to get enough at bats this season so that the team has a good grasp on what he is as a player by the end of the season.