Coaching, coaching, coaching

[mweb]

If both MSU and UMd had vacancies, which school do you believe would have better candidates calling for the position?

Not sure, probably MSU, but not by much, and that's because of Izzo being better than Gary, not the program being otherwise more attractive. Looking at the qualities of the programs without the current coaches being factored in, MD is at least as attractive imo.

But again, if a coach is doing really well at MD, I doubt he'd leave MD for MSU.

[Birds of B'more]

Not sure, probably MSU, but not by much, and that's because of Izzo being better than Gary, not the program being otherwise more attractive. Looking at the qualities of the programs without the current coaches being factored in, MD is at least as attractive imo.

But again, if a coach is doing really well at MD, I doubt he'd leave MD for MSU.

I give MSU a slight edge too, but Izzo and Gary have nothing to do with it. It's always about potential. And with no equivalent of Duke or UNC in the Big 10, a very good and hungry coach would probably see MSU as an easier path to building an elite program. Plus, with the Big 10 Network, he may see better earning potential as well.

[mweb]

I give MSU a slight edge too' date=' but Izzo and Gary have nothing to do with it. It's always about potential. And with no equivalent of Duke or UNC in the Big 10, a very good and hungry coach would probably see MSU as an easier path to building an elite program. Plus, with the Big 10 Network, he may see better earning potential as well.[/quote']

I don't think the Duke/UNC factor is really a negative for MD, this isn't the old days when only one team from a conference can make it. While Duke/UNC can take recruits away from MD, they can take recruits from MSU or anywhere else as well. There's also an allure for recruits to be able to play Duke/UNC multiple times a year and play in the ACC, which I think has more prestige than the Big Ten.

Otherwise, concerning potential, MD is in a more desirable location imo, is in an area with better recruits, has better facilities, and the benefit of Under Armour.

[hoosiers]

I see some serious big 10 homerism here.

I wrote a multi-paragraph response, but decided to post only this. This thread is 100% on about coaches.

Matta at OSU is a recruiting monster and that school has top commits going out for several years. It's a borderline top 10 program today and was in a NC game only a few years ago. Whether Maryland fans want to admit it or not, like the past few years, OSU will be ranked more often and generally higher than Maryland for the next five years.

People can speak about great conferences, coaches and tradition until they are blue in the face. Maryland will not be as good as OSU for most of the foreseeable future - next five years - just as it has not been for the last three to five.

There are multiple schools set up with current coaches and current players in the B10 I would say the same about - Michigan State for instance.

This not about conferences, but about individual schools. I mention the B10, because those are the schools I know. I think a Big East fan would enjoy discussing whether Maryland has had more recent success and whether it is set up better for the future than UConn, Syracuse, Georgetown, etc.

[mweb]

I wrote a multi-paragraph response, but decided to post only this. This thread is 100% on about coaches.

Matta at OSU is a recruiting monster and that school has top commits going out for several years. It's a borderline top 10 program today and was in a NC game only a few years ago. Whether Maryland fans want to admit it or not, like the past few years, OSU will be ranked more often and generally higher than Maryland for the next five years.

People can speak about great conferences, coaches and tradition until they are blue in the face. Maryland will not be as good as OSU for most of the foreseeable future - next five years - just as it has not been for the last three to five.

There are multiple schools set up with current coaches and current players in the B10 I would say the same about - Michigan State for instance.

This not about conferences, but about individual schools. I mention the B10, because those are the schools I know. I think a Big East fan would enjoy discussing whether Maryland has had more recent success and whether it is set up better for the future than UConn, Syracuse, Georgetown, etc.

I think you aren't arguing the same thing here if you are just talking about success of the last five years and next five years or whatever.

But I know you can't be doing that since you put Indiana and Michigan above MD.

That was also my point about OSU. Motta recruits really well, that's why they've been better recently than MD, not because OSU is the better program. If Gary had stayed at OSU as you mentioned earlier, they wouldn't be getting those guys now. That's not a more desirable school for recruits imo.

[Birds of B'more]

I don't think the Duke/UNC factor is really a negative for MD, this isn't the old days when only one team from a conference can make it. While Duke/UNC can take recruits away from MD, they can take recruits from MSU or anywhere else as well. There's also an allure for recruits to be able to play Duke/UNC multiple times a year and play in the ACC, which I think has more prestige than the Big Ten.

Otherwise, concerning potential, MD is in a more desirable location imo, is in an area with better recruits, has better facilities, and the benefit of Under Armour.

It can be a positive in some ways. But as a coach, if you're considering Maryland and want to be the top dog in the ACC, that is a mighty tall mountain to scale. If you're also considering MSU and want to be top dog in the Big 10....no other program right now looks like a serious roadblock. And I think the Big 10 Network can have greater impact on a coach's potential income than Under Armour's association with UMd ever would.

[mweb]

It can be a positive in some ways. But as a coach' date=' if you're considering Maryland and want to be the top dog in the ACC, that is a mighty tall mountain to scale. If you're also considering MSU and want to be top dog in the Big 10....no other program right now looks like a serious roadblock. And I think the Big 10 Network can have greater impact on a coach's potential income than Under Armour's association with UMd ever would.[/quote']

Well if being the top dog in your conference is a big deal, sure, it's better to go to MSU, but to be a national power, I don't think it matters.

I wasn't talking about Under Armour in terms of helping getting the coach more money.

I was also assuming equal money in this, if that's not the case, of course the team that pays more has an edge.

[Birds of B'more]

Well if being the top dog in your conference is a big deal, sure, it's better to go to MSU, but to be a national power, I don't think it matters.

I wasn't talking about Under Armour in terms of helping getting the coach more money.

I was also assuming equal money in this, if that's not the case, of course the team that pays more has an edge.

It's always about the money.

[mweb]

It's always about the money.

Of course, but I think it makes sense for the purpose of this discussion to not throw in a hypothetical higher salary for one school.

[hoosiers]

I think you aren't arguing the same thing here if you are just talking about success of the last five years and next five years or whatever.

But I know you can't be doing that since you put Indiana and Michigan above MD.

That was also my point about OSU. Motta recruits really well, that's why they've been better recently than MD, not because OSU is the better program. If Gary had stayed at OSU as you mentioned earlier, they wouldn't be getting those guys now. That's not a more desirable school for recruits imo.

It must be very frustrating to you to think you have such a great coach, such a great facility and such a great tradition to see other schools repeatedly have more success over a sustained period than Maryland and to be better set up for the future. You want to point out that another school can not match the Under Armor support, or a coach with a NC victory or a quality tradition or that another coach is only a good recruiter, and, yet, it is happening.

Maryland is not a top 15 program.

[mweb]

It must be very frustrating to you to think you have such a great coach, such a great facility and such a great tradition to see other schools repeatedly have more success over a sustained period than Maryland and to be better set up for the future. You want to point out that another school can not match the Under Armor support, or a coach with a NC victory or a quality tradition or that another coach is only a good recruiter, and, yet, it is happening.

Maryland is not a top 15 program.

I don't know who you're arguing with here, because it can't be me.

I'm not saying they're a top 15 program.

[mweb]

I think coaching is a huge reason why most programs are where there are, and I do think MD is a top 15 or so program when the coaching aspect is removed. And they were for awhile, but since the title(remember that game;)), Gary hasn't done a very good job and has had some misfortune. But he doesn't recruit nearly as well as Motta or Izzo would if they were at MD.

[ccbird]

It must be very frustrating to you to think you have such a great coach, such a great facility and such a great tradition to see other schools repeatedly have more success over a sustained period than Maryland and to be better set up for the future. You want to point out that another school can not match the Under Armor support, or a coach with a NC victory or a quality tradition or that another coach is only a good recruiter, and, yet, it is happening.

Maryland is not a top 15 program.

First, MD is still borderline top 15 anyway. I want to see the 15 programs that are clearly better than MD right now. Anyway, assuming they are not a top 15 program at this moment that doesn't mean Maryland isn't a Top 15 job. Indiana isn't a top 15 programs right now but certainly the job is and has been Top 15. It's why they were able to hire two respectable coaches in Sampson and Crean.

Here is the bottom line, currently we don't have a coach that is close to maximizing this schools resources and potential. In that sense, we don't have a great coach. We have a great X's and O's coach who is below average in the 2nd part of his job. You need the talent to win. I've said it before and I'll say it again. In todays game, I'll take a great recruiter and an average X's and O's coach over a great coach and average talent.

[hoosiers]

First, MD is still borderline top 15 anyway. I want to see the 15 programs that are clearly better than MD right now. Anyway, assuming they are not a top 15 program at this moment that doesn't mean Maryland isn't a Top 15 job. Indiana isn't a top 15 programs right now but certainly the job is and has been Top 15. It's why they were able to hire two respectable coaches in Sampson and Crean.

Here is the bottom line, currently we don't have a coach that is close to maximizing this schools resources and potential. In that sense, we don't have a great coach. We have a great X's and O's coach who is below average in the 2nd part of his job. You need the talent to win. I've said it before and I'll say it again. In todays game, I'll take a great recruiter and an average X's and O's coach over a great coach and average talent.

Well, there seems to be some sort of contrived logic that there are few schools that can match:

- National championship in the last 10 years

- quality ACC program

- quality history

- Under Armor

- other things UMd has going for it like being in the ACC

That if I say IU has five banners hanging in Assembly Hall that a UMd guy would say that IU has been terrible for a couple years as if that's the end of the discussion. Or if a graduate of Kansas State, Texas, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Marquette, Pitt or Georgetown alum says that their schools have consistently done better in the tournament or maintained longer/higher top 10-20 rankings in the last few years, that UMd will point to their banner as if that's the winning point in the discussion. Or if a Florida, Syracuse or Mich State alum points to higher rankings, better tourney success AND a recent banner, that a UMd alum will point to Under Armor as the winning point in that discussion.

Guess what? Many schools have rich alumni in charge of private or public companies or are self-made that can assist the programs in various ways. Many school is putting up new facilities associated with its programs whether its a new weight room, new practice facility, new home for games, etc. Other schools are in good conferences.

Yes, if Maryland landed a recruiting monster like a Thad Matta, the school could be a top 15 program given the other items that are in place. But other schools have similar attributes in place and would vie for the same coach.

Maryland is a very good program at a very good university with a very good coach and a quality tradition. It's not top 15.

[ccbird]

Well, there seems to be some sort of contrived logic that there are few schools that can match:

- National championship in the last 10 years

- quality ACC program

- quality history

- Under Armor

- other things UMd has going for it like being in the ACC

That if I say IU has five banners hanging in Assembly Hall that a UMd guy would say that IU has been terrible for a couple years as if that's the end of the discussion. Or if a graduate of Kansas State, Texas, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Marquette, Pitt or Georgetown alum says that their schools have consistently done better in the tournament or maintained longer/higher top 10-20 rankings in the last few years, that UMd will point to their banner as if that's the winning point in the discussion. Or if a Florida, Syracuse or Mich State alum points to higher rankings, better tourney success AND a recent banner, that a UMd alum will point to Under Armor as the winning point in that discussion.

Guess what? Many schools have rich alumni in charge of private or public companies or are self-made that can assist the programs in various ways. Many school is putting up new facilities associated with its programs whether its a new weight room, new practice facility, new home for games, etc. Other schools are in good conferences.

Yes, if Maryland landed a recruiting monster like a Thad Matta, the school could be a top 15 program given the other items that are in place. But other schools have similar attributes in place and would vie for the same coach.

Maryland is a very good program at a very good university with a very good coach and a quality tradition. It's not top 15.

Give me 15 programs better. Classify it anyway you want whether it's tradition, recent success, etc. I'm not even necessarily disagreeing but I want to see what you have. I mean are you really going to give me a program like Houston, St Johns or NC State. Those programs haven't been relevant in 20 years+. I find to believe it's going to be 15 programs that by any measure are clearly better than MD whatever your definition you use.