Coaching, coaching, coaching

[Birds of B'more]

Debbie Yow has never seemed to comprehend just how important Gary is to that university.

I wouldn't say she never comprehends it. Because of her ego and agenda she simply forgets from time to time. Fortunately, all of the big-time donors to the Athletic Department are there to quickly remind her of GW's importance when they hand over their check....as well as being quick to remind her that if Gary disappears, said check will disappear with him.

[Lucky Jim]

Ahhh, the rshack way of arguing. Brilliant!

What are you talking about? There's no need to discuss a complex issue with someone intellectually incapable of seeing something as other than black and white. Indeed, I noted that the focus on graduation rates in College BB is tinged by racism. I clearly don't think it's a deciding factor in Gary's legacy. Just something I think we could be better at. And that we should be better at.

Nowhere did I say that the heat Maryland takes is warranted. I merely said this was something I'd like to see improved. And apparently they are better:

We've graduated nine of our last 11 seniors. We have four seniors this year that will graduate. So that will be 13 out of 15 in the last five years I believe. However, we don't get measured on that yet. We're still measured back there.

[Sports Guy]

What are you talking about? There's no need to discuss a complex issue with someone intellectually incapable of seeing something as other than black and white. Indeed, I noted that the focus on graduation rates in College BB is tinged by racism. I clearly don't think it's a deciding factor in Gary's legacy. Just something I think we could be better at. And that we should be better at.

Nowhere did I say that the heat Maryland takes is warranted. I merely said this was something I'd like to see improved. And apparently they are better:

Its just a stupid thing to bring up and shows you to be a hypocrit and very naive. It also tells me that you don't quite have an understanding of what the idea of college is and how poor the process of calculating these grad rates are.

Its a bs mark against Gary in every way.

[AgentOrange]

To make more money and make it easier to get a job, right?

That is how I view it. And this is why I don't care if the players are living well after college, getting their degree or not. If you go early to play a pro sport, it shouldn't matter if you get your degree before doing it.

I feel that if a player gets their degree after they leave, it should count towards it, and the totals should always be able to change based off of that.

Hard to imagine that I would have stayed in college to finish my degree if an employer offered me a very highly paid job based on my current skill set.

[Lucky Jim]

What is the point of graduating?

There are a lot of reasons for graduating, I guess. One of them is to get a job. The other is to show that you've fulfilled the obligations of a complete liberal education. Yet another is the reinforcing the importance of a college education w/in the community - especially communities where education is occasionally neglected, whether it be the South Side of Chicago or rural Kentucky, upstate NY or rural New Mexico.

None of these, alone, are much. And together, they may only be slightly superficial. But, for me, it's sort-of like leading the league in balks every year. The rule is dumb, and subjective, but there's no reason to lead the league every year.

[AgentOrange]

There are a lot of reasons for graduating, I guess. One of them is to get a job. The other is to show that you've fulfilled the obligations of a complete liberal education. Yet another is the reinforcing the importance of a college education w/in the community - especially communities where education is occasionally neglected, whether it be the South Side of Chicago or rural Kentucky, upstate NY or rural New Mexico.

None of these, alone, are much. And together, they may only be slightly superficial. But, for me, it's sort-of like leading the league in balks every year. The rule is dumb, and subjective, but there's no reason to lead the league every year.

Thank you for that. The one thing I can't grasp my head around is the fact that UMD shouldn't get punished if a student leaves early for gainful employment. I understand when a student drops out that it should count against the university, but for those going pro and leaving early because of that, they should not be punished. Especially if they can go back at a later date and complete their coursework.

[mweb]

I agree 100% with all aspects of your post.

I do too other than the part about MD not being one of the 5 most talented teams in the ACC. But I guess that goes back to SG saying a guy who averages 5 points and 5 boards a game was the most talented player between two teams that featured the ACC player of the year and the runner-up.

So if that's the way you're judging talent, than talent doesn't really correlate to who's the better team even when eliminating coaches from consideration. MD is a top 5 team in terms of how good the players are.

Otherwise, yeah, Gary is a great coach, mediocre recruiter in terms of getting highly rated guys, but does get lesser regarded guys that turn out to be better than expected and that he coaches up nicely.

[Birds of B'more]

Thank you for that. The one thing I can't grasp my head around is the fact that UMD shouldn't get punished if a student leaves early for gainful employment. I understand when a student drops out that it should count against the university, but for those going pro and leaving early because of that, they should not be punished. Especially if they can go back at a later date and complete their coursework.

That's the part that gets me. A lot of former MD players actually finished their degrees while playing professional basketball, whether it be in the US or overseas. But because they didn't complete it within the NCAA's 7-year window, UMd is penalized for that too.

[Lucky Jim]

Its just a stupid thing to bring up and shows you to be a hypocrit and very naive. It also tells me that you don't quite have an understanding of what the idea of college is and how poor the process of calculating these grad rates are.

Its a bs mark against Gary in every way.

You know, SG, you're arrogance is matched only by your incapacity for complex thought. (I know you consider some fictional three-way trade to be complex thought.)

I'll say again: I don't have to agree with the way this issue is portrayed in the media (or the way it is calculated) to believe that we shouldn't have the worst graduation rate of all the tournament teams. That I believe that may very well paint me both a hypocrite and naive in your eyes. I guess. That you can't seem to understand that distinction (or spell hypocrite) reveals that you're probably not quite as intellectual savvy as you think you are.

I noted that his was a problem that was generated by a class of students long gone. But that doesn't mean that Gary is not accountable for any failures that occurred at that time. I mentioned Chris McCray specifically. He shouldn't be taking heat now for that, when he's clearly moved to fix the issues. But it contributes to some of the embarrassments surrounding the program over the last five years. And there was no need for it.

I know that the metric is outdated by the time it is released, btw. Everyone does. That doesn't mean that there wasn't a time when oversight was poor and/or this issue was mishandled.

[Lucky Jim]

Thank you for that. The one thing I can't grasp my head around is the fact that UMD shouldn't get punished if a student leaves early for gainful employment. I understand when a student drops out that it should count against the university, but for those going pro and leaving early because of that, they should not be punished. Especially if they can go back at a later date and complete their coursework.

I absolutely agree. My point was only: guys who stay four years and don't graduate. I think there should be some incentive to bring guys back to graduate, but it shouldn't be a black mark if they sign a contract to play basketball somewhere.

[mweb]

Concerning the grad rate, yes it's a poor system, yes Gary has only so much control over it, yes it's not something I care much about, but yes it should be better.

[Sports Guy]

I do too other than the part about MD not being one of the 5 most talented teams in the ACC. But I guess that goes back to SG saying a guy who averages 5 points and 5 boards a game was the most talented player between two teams that featured the ACC player of the year and the runner-up.

So if that's the way you're judging talent, than talent doesn't really correlate to who's the better team even when eliminating coaches from consideration. MD is a top 5 team in terms of how good the players are.

Otherwise, yeah, Gary is a great coach, mediocre recruiter in terms of getting highly rated guys, but does get lesser regarded guys that turn out to be better than expected and that he coaches up nicely.

MD does not have more pure talent than Duke, UNC and GT for sure. They argument could be made that FSU and Clemson are also more talented.

[mweb]

MD does not have more pure talent than Duke, UNC and GT for sure. They argument could be made that FSU and Clemson are also more talented.

Again, I don't care about pure talent, at least not the way you define it. It doesn't matter much who has the most pure talent when a guy averaging 5 and 5 ranks higher according to you than the two best players in the league.

I don't think using pure talent the way you do is a good way of arguing that Gary does more with less. What matters is how good the players are, not how much pure talent they have given the way you evaluate that. Greivis and Hayes don't have a ton of pure talent, but one is a great player and the other is a good player. Jordan Williams may not be as talented as Plumbee, but he is better player as of right now.

[HititHere04]

There are a lot of reasons for graduating, I guess. One of them is to get a job. The other is to show that you've fulfilled the obligations of a complete liberal education. Yet another is the reinforcing the importance of a college education w/in the community - especially communities where education is occasionally neglected, whether it be the South Side of Chicago or rural Kentucky, upstate NY or rural New Mexico.

None of these, alone, are much. And together, they may only be slightly superficial. But, for me, it's sort-of like leading the league in balks every year. The rule is dumb, and subjective, but there's no reason to lead the league every year.

So you are going to get on Gary, for a 20 year old guy not caring about graduating because he is going to go play a game somewhere, making 500k+ a year, and because it isn't his #1 priority to be a role model to people back home in the south side of said city?

Give me a break.

If someone came to you after your senior year of high school and offered you a job making 800k a year to talk about the O's, would you have taken it, or would you have went to college? Keep in mind, you can always go back to college and finish your degree.

That is what these kids are doing. Heck, Vasquez was considering (rumors) going to Europe and playing after last season because his dad was sick and he needed money.

So, he could go over there, make 500 grand for a few years, and come back to MD for a few credits and graduate, all while contributing a black eye to MD's grad rates.

I can't believe some people continue to get on Gary and other coaches for that.

[AgentOrange]

So you are going to get on Gary, for a 20 year old guy not caring about graduating because he is going to go play a game somewhere, making 500k+ a year, and because it isn't his #1 priority to be a role model to people back home in the south side of said city?

Give me a break.

If someone came to you after your senior year of high school and offered you a job making 800k a year to talk about the O's, would you have taken it, or would you have went to college? Keep in mind, you can always go back to college and finish your degree.

That is what these kids are doing. Heck, Vasquez was considering (rumors) going to Europe and playing after last season because his dad was sick and he needed money.

So, he could go over there, make 500 grand for a few years, and come back to MD for a few credits and graduate, all while contributing a black eye to MD's grad rates.

I can't believe some people continue to get on Gary and other coaches for that.

I absolutely agree. My point was only: guys who stay four years and don't graduate. I think there should be some incentive to bring guys back to graduate, but it shouldn't be a black mark if they sign a contract to play basketball somewhere.

I don't think that was what he was saying.