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Treblehorn Dismissed; more changes to come


Crazysilver03

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I think if Mazzone isnt succeeding here it most likely is an Oriole problem not a Mazzone problem. Our kids just suck.

Why blame the players who have failed for years when you can blame the pitching coach with a track record of success?

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I think, part of the reason for it being hard to implement the Mazzone system throughout the entire system, is that the minor league complex is away from the Major league complex. I know that is being addressed, not sure if it's this Spring Training or next, but I really think that having everyone in the same facility will help in getting everyone on the same page.

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I am not sure Mazzone or any of his defenders can pont to the injuries our pitchers have suffered as an excuse. It might very well be that his pitching regimen is the cause of many of those injuries.

The cause of what? Bad pitchers pitching poorly? I think it's more likely that we just don't have enough good pitchers. Are you suggesting that Mazzone's regimen, for the first time, ruined the majority of a promising pitching staff as a more likely situation than a failing pitching staff just laking talent?

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Hey Fruit Loop -

Is English your second language?

When I say that Mazzone's regimen may be "the cause of many of those injuries" I mean that Mazzone's regimen (i.e. throwing twice in between starts) may be the cause of many of those injuries. Obviously I am not talking about pitching performance. Is that so difficult to understand?

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In regard to Mazzone's status as a pitching guru based upon the successs of the Braves pitching staffs, it could very well be that Mazzone just happened to be the pitching coach in Atlanta when Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz came of age. Was Mazzone the reason for Atlanta's string of great pitching or merely the benefactor?

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Hey Fruit Loop -

Is English your second language?

When I say that Mazzone's regimen may be "the cause of many of those injuries" I mean that Mazzone's regimen (i.e. throwing twice in between starts) may be the cause of many of those injuries. Obviously I am not talking about pitching performance. Is that so difficult to understand?

Actually, it's my third. As a young lad we spoke Mandarin around the house. And, for some reason, my parents thought learning Uzbek would be a good idea. They always seemed to feel that people underestimated the Uzbekistanian Army, and thought for sure they would take over the world. But, when I moved to this country, I was forced to pickup on English since Uzkek didn't prove as prevalent as my upbringing had led me to believe.

I guess it's my lack of English comprehension skills that led me to believe that, by implying Mazzone's regimen causes injuries to a pitching staff, you were saying that he had a negative effect. But, I guess I missed the day of ESOL class where they taught about injuries to a pitching staff being good for performance. I'll go back and study some more. Thanks for the advice. In case I need help, do you happen to know where I can find a good "Uzbek to English" translator?

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In regard to Mazzone's status as a pitching guru based upon the successs of the Braves pitching staffs, it could very well be that Mazzone just happened to be the pitching coach in Atlanta when Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz came of age. Was Mazzone the reason for Atlanta's string of great pitching or merely the benefactor?

There has been a ton of analysis done on Mazzone's impact on the ATL pitching staff. Lots of it deals with people other than the obvious big 3. There's a book by JC Bradbury with an entire chapter breaking down Leo's impact. And, he showed that pitchers' numbers improved when they got to Leo, and they decliend after they left. He had an impact on RPs and SPs, and he improved them each in different ways. And, the improvements went hand in hand with Leo's philosophy on starters and relievers showing that it isn't just dumb luck. When looking at Leo's effect, it's better to look at guys like Charlie Liebrandt and Mike Remlinger than it is to look at the studs like Smoltz and Maddux.

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Has there ever been an analysis as to whether throwing twice in between starts leads to more injuries than only throwing once in between starts? Did Atlanta have an abnormally large number of injured pitchers during Mazzone's tenure?

Maybe I could be persuaded that Mazzone is not at fault for the rash of injuries the O's suffered this year (especially Loewan's, which was likely caused by too much throwing).

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Exactly. There are reasons that he has had success. Just adding his name to the organizational phone book won't cut it. If you hire him, you need to let him do whatever it is that has worked. This organization has holes as far as the eye can see, and we're worried about replacing one of the top pitching coaches in the game...Maybe we just have no talent and haven't let him do things the way he wants. Maybe he's not the problem, but rather it's the pitchers who have failed everywhere else who are? Just a hunch...

I mostly agree with what you and Gesh are saying. But when you say there are reasons for his past success, I would say a major reason is he had 3 future HOF'ers in his rotation most of the time there, and often a good proven and/or talented #4 guy. An no, I'm not saying he's only an average coach or anything like that, but with less talent, he would'nt be as highly revered. He certainly has done a great job in his career, not arguing against that.

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I mostly agree with what you and Gesh are saying. But when you say there are reasons for his past success, I would say a major reason is he had 3 future HOF'ers in his rotation most of the time there, and often a good proven and/or talented #4 guy. An no, I'm not saying he's only an average coach or anything like that, but with less talent, he would'nt be as highly revered. He certainly has done a great job in his career, not arguing against that.

You have to give some credit to Mazzone for getting something out of guys like Sosa, Wright, Liebrandt, etc. That's clear. It wasn't just the big three making the numbers look good. BUT I do think people overlook the presence of the big three as well as Bobby Cox in helping the lesser guys perform at above average levels. Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz were likely positive influences for a lot of the guys who went through Atlanta while Mazzone was there, and Bobby Cox is, IMO, the greatest manager of the modern era. At least during the regular season anyway. The guy is just a master button-pusher. So how much of the credit should go to Mazzone remains up in the air.

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Has there ever been an analysis as to whether throwing twice in between starts leads to more injuries than only throwing once in between starts? Did Atlanta have an abnormally large number of injured pitchers during Mazzone's tenure?

Maybe I could be persuaded that Mazzone is not at fault for the rash of injuries the O's suffered this year (especially Loewan's, which was likely caused by too much throwing).

This is just BS and I am calling it. Loewen's injury was a very rare injury which is usually attributed to a freak occurance or if there is a actual reason it is attributed to poor mechanics. It is usually associated with the deccelaration phase of the delievery, but it is not a typical overuse injury.

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From the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons - "Stress fractures are a type of overuse injury. These tiny cracks in your bones develop when your muscles become overtired (fatigued) and can no longer absorb the shock of repeated impacts. When this happens, the muscles transfer the stress to the bones, creating a small crack or fracture."

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I mostly agree with what you and Gesh are saying. But when you say there are reasons for his past success, I would say a major reason is he had 3 future HOF'ers in his rotation most of the time there, and often a good proven and/or talented #4 guy. An no, I'm not saying he's only an average coach or anything like that, but with less talent, he would'nt be as highly revered. He certainly has done a great job in his career, not arguing against that.

You can leave those guys completely out of the discussion, and he still has a successful track record. The chapter in "The Baseball Economist" by Bradbury is fantastic on this subject. He goes into his research thinking like you. But, he finds that Mazzone improves guys who he gets, and those same guys fall off when they leave. He has some excellent research, and it shows that his impact on the fringe guys is outstanding.

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