Blame MacPhail

[JTrea81]

Beltran? You mean the same Beltran who is sitting on the DL while Gary Matthews Jr patrols CF for the Mets.

And Miguel Cabrera, who is only 2 years into a 7 year contract.

Beltran's given them 4.5 out of 5 good years and has the rest of this year and next. He should be back by June.

And he was a big part of them making the playoffs. I'd say they got what they invested.

Miguel Cabrera isn't showing any signs of slowing down and is only 27.

[Bradysburns]

For as much crap as JTrea gets, he's got a pretty valid point. The GM brought back a bad coaching staff with an attitude that accepts and forgives losing. While I would not have gone after Holliday with our OF talent as it stands, Pie and Reimold are both injury prone, so acquiring a top LFer may not have been a bad move. I just think he was lousy in the American League last year.

We're dealing with injuries to Roberts, Gonzalez, Koji, Pie, Reimold, and Tejada right now (in varying degrees). Jones, Markakis, and Wieters aren't really doing much heavy hitting. Our current infield features BOTH Wigginton and Atkins ( ). Our infield tomorrow could very easly feature Wigginton, Atkins, Izturis, and Lugo.

We barely have a team right now. While I wish MacPhail would have done better personnel wise this off season, the FA market didn't really match up with our team needs. Not much you can do about that.

If we continue to suck beyond belief when our roster is at full health, that's a different issue. I'm furstrated with MacPhail a bit as well, but I have to think that we'll be better than this at some point this season.

I've heard this concept before - that we have injuries. Well, enough excuses. I honestly think it's the GM's job to maintain a certain amount o depth to account or injuries, which are just part of the game anyway. This line of argumentation is starting to sound like rationalization to me. Otherwise, I agree with your post entirely.

Excuses

[Crazysilver03]

There's a set group of dudes that believe they have the lock on all "intellectual discourse" on the site and anyone that posts thoughts and/or feelings outside of the umbrella of what they consider to be "legitimate" dialogue is quickly lambasted and ridiculed.

Do you have fun trying to label yourself as a martyr? This site is all about differing opinions and different viewpoints, when they are presented in an intellectual manner. But I am not going to take DocJJ seriously when he goes around calling MacPhail McFail.

[eddie83]

One player won't get us to the playoffs but it is a start.

Had we actually spent $100+ million to land Holliday or any FA, don't you think some perceptions about the Orioles would have changed? Don't you think players would have more confidence about the direction of this team if the GM is willing to go and spend that kind of money on a player that can help them win?

Aggressively pursuing and signing Holliday or Teixeira or any premium FA like that isn't just about the player, but the message that it sends. And other players and FAs would take notice as well.

When the Orioles signed Tejada, they were able to get Javy Lopez and Palmeiro as well.

Back in 1995, the Orioles FA spree of Alomar, Surhoff, Myers and McDowell was all a chain reaction.

In each case the losing perception was changed. Fans and players were energized. Now in each case a piece was missing, but this team has a better foundation, but now MacPhail isn't willing to try that again, failing to realize those previous plans might have worked had the Orioles had the pieces they had in place now.

We need a combination of a FA spree/trading spree to bring in premium talent so this team can win again. Something major has to happen and the young talent alone cannot be the backbone of this team, not when you have to beat the talent that is in this division. And it's going to have to start sooner than later.

This isn't 1995 though. If it was MacPhail should spend more. In 1995 OPACY was 4 years old, Cal streak was still going on and NYY and Boston hadn't widened the financial gap the way they have now. We were coming off some competitive seasons. The YES Network didn't exist in 1995. When Andy took over we were in the middle of our 10th straight losing season. We were able to use free agency to our benefit then (1995) because the circumstances were different. You have to live within your means. It's not Andy's fault what happened before he got here. If I have a job that pays $200,000 a year and then lose my job and I make $50,000 a year I can't live the same lifestyle as before. The Orioles have to operate based on their current circumstances. They can't operate like other teams they have to do what works for them.

I agree we need to add talent. We can't do it the way you think we can though, it doesn't work that way.

[Crazysilver03]

Beltran's given them 4.5 out of 5 good years and has the rest of this year and next. He should be back by June.

And he was a big part of them making the playoffs. I'd say they got what they invested.

Miguel Cabrera isn't showing any signs of slowing down and is only 27.

How did Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, and Tom Glavine all turn out for the Mets? And the Mets made it to the playoffs once in 2006 and were booted in the NLCS. $117M for one post-season is a good investment?

[eddie83]

How did Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, and Tom Glavine all turn out for the Mets? And the Mets made it to the playoffs once in 2006 and were booted in the NLCS. $117M for one post-season is a good investment?

And on top of that they play in a weaker division then we do.

[JTrea81]

How did Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, and Tom Glavine all turn out for the Mets? And the Mets made it to the playoffs once in 2006 and were booted in the NLCS. $117M for one post-season is a good investment?

Look at his stats throughout the contract.

Injury is the only thing that has brought him down - not a lack of performance minus his first year.

[ledzepp8]

Yes this is part of the facade, just like the extension of Markakis and Roberts. The plan has to have young hyped players if it is going to be sold.

If Angelos hadn't approved those moves, fans would seriously question where the Orioles were heading. Instead they fell right in line with the plan...

I don't think Angelos thinks this way.

He doesn't want to spend to make money because he's been burned by doing that in the past. Instead he wants to spend as little as possible, thus it's less of a risk and he can still make a healthy profit.

It's MacPhail's job to convince him otherwise, and he hasn't done it.

Dude you're officially cracked.

[Mashed Potatoes]

And you know this how? Did you talk to Boras?

Trea, would you agree that you hold other posters to a higher burden of proof than yourself?

Why is SG without a sufficient amount of proof necessary to offer his opinion about what it would've taken to sign Tex/Holliday, but your speculations about the kinds of efforts made by the Orioles and what communications the Orioles made to these players during free agency is sound?

[JTrea81]

Trea, would you agree that you hold other posters to a higher burden of proof than yourself?

Why is SG without a sufficient amount of proof necessary to offer his opinion about what it would've taken to sign Tex/Holliday, but your speculations about the kinds of efforts made by the Orioles and what communications the Orioles made to these players during free agency is sound?

What proof has he offered? We have no idea how much it would have taken the Orioles to sign Holliday because they never offered anything close to what St Louis did. Had we done that and he turned us down - well then you could say we would have had to offer him a lot more.

Ditto for Tex. You can say he didn't want to come here, but the lowest offer out of any team seriously pursuing him isn't going to change his mind. And I've said I would have offered 8/184 to land him. Would the Yankees have beaten that? Maybe, or maybe not. Would Tex have spurned the Orioles for less money? Maybe maybe not.

The Orioles never aggressively pursed either so we'll never know.

But to flat out say that the Orioles would have had to offer a lot more to land Holliday or that Tex would never come here is making an assumption based on no evidence.

I have no proof either, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. All of this is conjecture.

[alexei606]

How happy are the Cubs that they signed "premium" FA, Alfonso Soriano?

Not my definition of a "premium" FA - not even close. Texeira, and lesser extent, Holliday are "premium" FAs - who also IMO, the best of their class (hitters at least). Soriano turned his career year (still huge red flags on defense and plate discipline) into an ungodly bad contract for the Cubs. I don't think Tex for sure and Holliday will come close to this type of epic contractual failure. In fact, signing Holliday was essential for the Cards to sign Pujols - different situation than what any other team faced and the real reason why the Cards spent so much in years and dollars for him.

McPhail, IMO, won't pay the money for a "premium" talent in FA, International signings or the draft (yes, Wieters is the last of that). Matusz was a steal at the money he signed for and that is the real reason, IMO, that he was drafted (Smoak was asking for more). He happened to be the BPA. Hobgood was not the BPA - Matzek was. I am sure that Jordan does "love" Hobgood, but, part of that was his willingness to sign for less than slot (Alex White and Wheeler were asked to sign for slot or less and declined, Hobgood was next according to reports, IIRC).

Chapman and Sano - no serious consideration or offers to either one (or for that matter, no real signings at all). Reds outbid A's, Twins outbid the Pirates - hardly the Yankees or Red Sox, though the Twins are no longer to be considered a McPhail team with their payroll now.

Uehara, unfortunately, probably has closed the Japanese market - which I think is the most advanced market outside of MLB. Plus, he was not a "premium" FA anyway.

Yes, I do believe that McPhail has culpability in this disastrous start. His off season was mediocre at best and did not address any of the three glaring holes the Orioles have (big bat, TOR or closer). Millwood was a decent PU for Ray, but, he is not a TOR. Tejada and Atkins - enough said. Gonzalez - I think the Braves knew something by ditching him and Soriano for Wagner and Saito. Trembley was not given the tools to show a "meaningful improvement in wins and losses or the standings", IMO.

However, Trembley does not seem to be the guy to get the Orioles untracked, to stop pressing and to play fundamentally sound baseball. Perhaps what Leo Mazzone said is still true, the Orioles are too soft, I don't know. But, a shake-up is definitely needed, and the easiest target is the manager (sometimes it works - see Rockies 2009). Reimold has been slowed by his injury, but, I think the worst thing is his inconsistent playing time - I think he needs to play every day in some capacity; he is not a platoon player - a Manager issue and possibly a GM issue if there is meddling in who plays. I think Stotle is right about Jones - he has not developed with the Orioles. Perhaps Jones did not get the attention he needed with Crowley and the other coaches because how much Pie needed. That is a GM issue and and also a Manager and Coaching issue.

The Orioles are much better than their record - and the talent is good to potentially super star, in many positions. The injuries have hurt a lot - particularly, Roberts, and may be Gonzalez although he still might not have been an effective closer. Even so, the Orioles should be much better than 1-11, which means, the GM and Manager/Coaching issues are driving this, IMOP.

[Mashed Potatoes]

Trea, I have another question for you and forgive me if you've already answered it, I haven't been reading much on the Orioles Talk these days.

I know you don't think MacPhail is the right man for the job, but I'm curious how exactly you view the man. Do you believe that

-He has the freedom to do what he wants but has a flawed strategy?

-He thought he would have the freedom from PA and whatever you believe PA's agenda to be, but in fact he hasn't had the freedom to do what he wants

-He's a partner with PA in executing his supposed financial strategy

[JTrea81]

Trea, I have another question for you and forgive me if you've already answered it, I haven't been reading much on the Orioles Talk these days.

I know you don't think MacPhail is the right man for the job, but I'm curious how exactly you view the man. Do you believe that

-He has the freedom to do what he wants but has a flawed strategy?

-He thought he would have the freedom from PA and whatever you believe PA's agenda to be, but in fact he hasn't had the freedom to do what he wants

-He's a partner with PA in executing his supposed financial strategy

I'd say a little bit of the first and a little bit of the third.

He's an unknowing partner of PGA's strategy because he believes his small market strategy will work and his ego isn't going to let him alter the plan.

He's doing exactly what he did with the Cubs and trying to make it work in Baltimore.

[Moose Milligan]

There's a set group of dudes that believe they have the lock on all "intellectual discourse" on the site and anyone that posts thoughts and/or feelings outside of the umbrella of what they consider to be "legitimate" dialogue is quickly lambasted and ridiculed.

It happens here all the time, and its funny to me, but I can see how it can be frustrating and ridiculous to constantly be challenged for just posting your feelings on a MESSAGE BOARD.

Its a MESSAGE BOARD, not "me and a few of my sabermetric demagogue online cohorts" discussion site.

Like I said, its funny to me, but some folks let their passions get to them, and I have no right to say whether or not its "legit" subject matter for the Orioles Hangout.

MSK

First of all, there isn't anything intellectual going on here.

No ones arguing about sabermetrics here. And for the records, sabermetrics aren't an awful thing, they just help us understand the game better. I admit to not understanding them as much as some others do on here but just because you're not an expert in them doesn't mean you should put them down and try to say that those people have the "lock on all intellectual discourse." Hell, look at Frobby...he always brings up great points and hardly ever uses anything that I'd consider a hardcore sabermetric stat.

Hell, I can even see where JTrea comes from on certain things...however when you bring up ridiculous conspiracy theories and then duck and dodge posts that hold your feet to the fire, you deserve to get dumped on. When you take every given opportunity to hijack threads and espouse your theories and piss people off, you deserve to get dumped on. When you back out of threads after you've started a fire for posting your "feelings" and then not backing them up all the way, you deserve to get dumped on.

That, MSK, is not intellectual discourse.

[mweb]

As I said in my thread the other day:

Does losing vindicate the crowd that wanted to make a big splash?

It seems like that's what they think so far. Seems like there's a sentiment out there saying we suck thus we should have gotten AGon or Holliday.

However, if we do suck, doesn't that also prove one of the points of the anti big splash crowd? Which was the timing issue. In other words, if the team isn't close to contention, does it make sense to spend a ton of money or sacrifice a lot of young talent on someone who has the highest chance of having his best season with us this year?

Now of course I don't think the team is this bad, but regardless I and most others didn't feel the team was going to contend this year even if they added one of the aforementioned stars. So I feel the timing issue was valid then.

I'm just missing how the team possibly being bad equates to people saying "see, we should have gotten AGon or Holliday." So instead of winning 70 games we'd win 74 games or whatever?

Well I actually do likely get it, and it's simply frustration and an opportunity, albeit a poor one to further their agenda.

So again, does losing help or hurt the argument for a guy like AGon or Holliday?

I'd say it hurts it unless you really care about winning a few more games in a losing season.