Times like these...

[Camden_yardbird]

The players should have to answer these questions. They have to realize that their inability to perform at their jobs has consequences. That is part of the reason I believe that change is sometimes necessary.

This team needs some reality, because right now this whole season has felt pretty surreal.

[ChaosLex]

Can't let this one fall too far down the boards.

[Tony-OH]

I'm not sure if I've ever seen a more lopsided negative opinion of a thread before. And that's saying something because Trea starts a lot of threads.

This thing deserves the first negative star rating...

[NewMarketSean]

Rshack is the anti-Trea

[Sports Guy]

What i don't get is if we are such horrible fans, why would Rshack choose to associate himself with this site?

Why come around at all?

Why not start rshackisbetterthanyou.com.....That way, he can have a sister website to goofytraderumors.com.

[ChaosLex]

What i don't get is if we are such horrible fans, why would Rshack choose to associate himself with this site?

Why come around at all?

Why not start rshackisbetterthanyou.com.....That way, he can have a sister website to goofytraderumors.com.

Quick, somebody go to GoDaddy.com :laughlol:

[SilentJames]

What i don't get is if we are such horrible fans, why would Rshack choose to associate himself with this site?

Why come around at all?

Why not start rshackisbetterthanyou.com.....That way, he can have a sister website to goofytraderumors.com.

Sorry SG, but Rshack starts goofytraderumors.com? Really SG, I thought you would've cornered the market on that one a while ago.

Just playing with you buddy.

[RShack]

Oh, my...

Well, let's see... I think there are a few parts to this (leaving out the mindless hate-BS). Responding to what's been said will not be short, so those of you who don't like to read might as well move on right now and save yourself some work.

I can certainly understand that people don't like the bolded part below...

I see where Zrebiec is reporting that guys like Nick and JJ are having to field questions about DT getting fired. As if they don't have enough to worry about... now they have to deal with reporters getting in their face about that too. Obviously it's coming from places like this. The only readily available samplings of fan attitude are this place, the Sun board, and shout-radio. So, the fact that Nick, JJ, and others are having to deal with this stuff is pretty much a reaction to the kind of noise that's been going on around here for the last day or so. (I hope everybody feels really proud about that.)

I recognize that I have a very-minority opinion about this. To me, it appears that only a very few people were calling for DT's head prior to the by-now-famous Frobby post. Some were, a few, but not many. But then, once Frobby said it, the tide rapidly turned. As I understand it, many people feel that was just a coincidence, that DT's lack of immediate televised response to the Lugo thing somehow managed to make lots of people think DT should be fired, and that Frobby just happened to be the first convert to say it out loud.

As I said before, I don't believe that for one second. I believe that Frobby has significant influence around here (which I believe he has earned, whether he wants it or not), and I think Frobby's post set off a chain reaction of folks who suddenly decided DT's time is up, even though most of them never said that before. I think a lot of folks thought (more or less) "Well, jeez, if that's what Frobby thinks, well, I guess his time is up." I realize that many folks don't like that opinion. After all, nobody wants to view themselves as somebody who's piling on, even if they are. Therefore, the idea that it was a bandwagon thing is something that many folks don't like one bit. At the same time, how anybody can spend much time around here and not observe frequent bandwagon tendencies is beyond me. Bandwagon stuff happens a lot. It just does. IMO, the fire-DT uproar from yesterday is but one very recent and very large example. I understand that people don't like that opinion. However, the unpopularity of it doesn't mean that I don't have it. I do have it. I think the fire-DT uproar was very much a bandwagon thing. There is zero doubt in my mind about that. I might be wrong, but is what I think. I pretty much asked for a lot of crap for saying it out loud.

One minor thing about the players being faced with it...

if Zriebec is asking the players questions about Trembley possibly being fired, that's because Zriebec believes that it's a possibility. It has nothing to do with popular opinion on Orioles Hangout or the Sun board. If a journalist isn't thinking about that when the GM has said the season is about wins and losses, and the team is off to a 2-14 start, he's got his head in the sand.

I think the bolded part above is a big stretch. I think it is not only plausible but very likely that Zriebec was aware of the sudden major uproar, and responded to it by asking questions, all of which was perfectly appropriate on his part. I don't see how anybody would be so sure that it "had nothing to do with it". I never look at the Sun board, so I don't know what happened there. But face it, yesterday it was a very big stink around here. In fact, it was the biggest one in a long while, with thread after thread after thread focusing on it. I think that's a bit unrealistic to assert that it was just a coincidence.

There is second issue, apart from the fire-DT thing, and it's one that I can't believe people really believe is out of line. They might not like it, but I think most folks would admit it's actually true. It's the bolded part in the section below:

This is yet another example of why it matters for the franchise to be on very good, family-like terms with the great Orioles from before. Why? Because right now is when those guys can be important. God knows the players can't count on the fans for support when things are bad. To the contrary, they're now dealing with the distraction of all the fire-DT crap that recently popped up around here in such dramatic fashion. So, this is the perfect time for guys who have things like WS rings and MVP's and their very own plaques in Cooperstown to just kinda drop by the clubhouse before the game. Not to make impassioned rah-rah speeches, but just to stop by. Maybe say a few words about coping with hard times, or maybe not. But mainly to let the guys on the team know that they are part of something bigger than themselves, that they are part of a tradition of goodness, and to remind them that because they are Baltimore Orioles, some of the greatest ballplayers of all time are on their side and have their back.

I see some very indignant How-dare-you's about that, followed by the usual stuff about people bleeding orange-and-black... as if posting a lot of negative stuff and trashing Oriole players and coaches is somehow showing support for them. Evidently, some people take umbrage at the idea that message-board traffic routinely features a predominant tone that turns against the team when things are going badly. IMO, to deny that happens is evidence that somebody is living in la-la land. All it takes is a 3-game losing streak and many folks are ready to jump out the window. If a rough spell gets longer and longer, the level of vitriol gets higher and higher. People stand in line to attack various guys on the team, everybody from part-time players clear up to the GM. It happens like clockwork. Now, whether that's appropriate behavior is not the issue. People can have perfectly reasonable disagreements about that. But to pretend it doesn't happen is just goofy. It happens like clockwork. You can count on it, just as much as you can count on death and taxes. So, when people get insulted at the idea that message-board fans turn on the team when times are hard, well, that's just a case of people denying reality. It's a very observable fact. In fact, I think everybody knows it's true, but some folks seem to think it's somehow out of bounds to admit it. Here's my take on it: On the one hand, we have people who sound oh-so-tough when it comes to trashing whichever Oriole they happen to be mad at in the moment, but on the other hand, if somebody simply points out that people start spouting vitriol against Orioles when things are going wrong, they get all insulted. To me, this is a classic example of people who can dish it out but can't take it. I agree that you have every right to trash Orioles if you want to. I understand that it is a normal part of what goes on in fandom. But to deny that it happens, and then get mad because somebody points it out, is rather lame.

As for the main point I was making, we seem to have two points of disagreement. For example...

Re: the actual point of the OP - I don't think there'd be much baseball effect. The presence of other O's greats might help morale and create a more pleasant atmosphere at times, but there's no guarantee that translates to success on the field.

I never said it would fix anything on the field. To the contrary, here's what I said:

Doing that won't solve anything. It won't make hits start falling in. It won't make the ball bounce the right way.

So, for those of you who think it won't be a magic fix, I completely agree with you... in fact, I said it in the OP.

The second point of disagreement is that some folks think that the presence of guys like Palmer and T-Bone somehow provides grounds for dismissing what I said. For example,

So, what about Shack's main point -- would having a stronger connection to the great Orioles of the past help at times when the team is struggling?

I will give you my honest opinion - no. Palmer's around. Flanagan's around. Dempsey's around. Shelby's around. Boog is around. There are reasons I think having more connections to the players would be good for public relations, but I don't think it would make any real difference in how the team will perform or feel.

I think you are missing something important. The guys you mentioned are essentially part of the everyday work environment. While they have different jobs, they are there because of their jobs. They are part of the everyday work routine. From my point of view, having them around is not at all the same thing as having family show up to be there when times are hard. I think there's a big diff between having Oriole employees show up vs. having guys show up who aren't there because it's their job to be there, but who show up because they're Oriole family and are showing up because they choose to, to be supportive when times are hard.

Throughout all this, there is another issue that seems to be pervasive here, and that's whether there is any positive value in being supportive of the team. It appears that some folks believe that these guys are paid to do a job, and deserve all the crap that posters can dish out whenever they fail to do that job well. It's the old "hold them accountable by criticizing them" philosophy. I fully recognize that there are a fair number of people here who believe in doing that. It's beyond any doubt that some folks like to do that. All you need to do is read what gets said around here after the team drops 3 in a row. People are standing in line to "hold them accountable". Now, am I saying people are somehow not permitted to do that? No, of course not. It's completely normal. I fully agree that people have every right to say what they think, and if that means trashing Orioles when things go wrong, that's what they're gonna do. I am not advocating censorship about any of that.

What I am saying is that turning on Orioles and spewing vitriol at them is not the only valid response. While doing that is normal, it is also entirely normal for fans to support their team when times are hard. It may not be normal on message-boards or shout-radio, but it is pretty normal in other parts of fandom. Lots of fans get frustrated but don't feel the need to spew a lot of negative crap. Lots of fans can be frustrated and still support the players and coaches, and hope for them to find their way out of the mess they've been in. There's nothing at all unusual about that, except on message-boards and shout-radio. The problem is that vitriol on message-boards and shout-radio is what gets attention. That's the stuff that players hear about, and then get asked about. To deny that this is true is ridiculous. The simple fact is that, when times are rough, message-board posters turn against them. This is very, very true, and anybody who is being honest with themselves knows it's true. Whether you think it's appropriate or not is beside the point. The point is that it happens, and it happens very reliably.

So, in the face of that overwhelmign stream of criticism whenever times are hard, I think there is indeed positive value in having former Oriole greats show up. Not because they're paid to be there, but because they feel they are part of the family and therefore want to be there, just to support the young guys who are just getting started as Orioles. The old guys might not know what it's like to be in last place, but they do know what it's like to be in a clubhouse when things are going wrong. They know what it's like to face criticism from people who have no clue what it's like. And they know what it's like to be in a stretch when you can't buy a hit when you most need one. How anybody can think it's not a good thing for the players and coaches to feel like somebody is there to support them when times are hard, well, I just don't understand that. I just don't.

And if that support is gonna come from only a few people, while the main visible response is a loud stream of criticism on message-boards and radio, then what better few people could it possibly be than guys who have MVP's and rings and Cooperstown plaques that they earned while wearing a shirt that said "Orioles" on the front? I don't see how anybody can argue with that... unless of course you think the current players and coaches who are struggling deserve only input that is predominantly critical and negative. You can think that if you want, but I don't. I think that's just crazy. There is certainly no requirement that you try to put yourself in their shoes, but dismissing the idea that somebody else can and should, and that it might best be somebody who actually knows what it's like to face tough times and come out the other side being a champion, is IMO short-sighted to the point of being almost blind.

[Old#5fan]

I'm not sure if I've ever seen a more lopsided negative opinion of a thread before. And that's saying something because Trea starts a lot of threads.

This thing deserves the first negative star rating...

I rarely if ever one-star a thread but I one-starred this bad boy immediately!:laughlol:

PS to the thread OP, I just read your lengthy response/rebuttal or whatever you want to term it and all I can see is to each his own. If you want to see things that way fine. I think what gets most people up in arms including yours truly, is whenever anyone else tries to tell you how to be a fan of your team. Nobody, and I reiterate NOBODY likes someone doing that - and it will always generate a host of negative responses.

[Lucky Jim]

Now we know where Shack's been. Writing his manifesto.

[Sports Guy]

There were at least 5 "fire DT" type threads made before Frobby's was made...And that is just in the last few weeks...That doesn't count the ones last year, the year before, this offseason, etc....

To act as if this is some new attitude on this site is like saying there were never any sign Tex threads.

What an absurd and extremely stupid thing to say.

[clapdiddy]

There were at least 5 "fire DT" type threads made before Frobby's was made...And that is just in the last few weeks...That doesn't count the ones last year, the year before, this offseason, etc....

To say that this is some new thing on OH is like saying we never started a Tex thread when he was a FA.

Ahhhh...the good old days....Tex threads...

[clapdiddy]

Now we know where Shack's been. Writing his manifesto.

I'm going to wait to read the book!

[RShack]

Now we know where Shack's been. Writing his manifesto.

Well, actually, I was busy talking with (get this!) *lawyers* until a few minutes ago. I realize it might seem that I have nothing going on except stuff here, and that if I don't post every 10 minutes then I'm dodging something, but things aren't that simple...

[Malike]

There were at least 5 "fire DT" type threads made before Frobby's was made...And that is just in the last few weeks...That doesn't count the ones last year, the year before, this offseason, etc....

To act as if this is some new attitude on this site is like saying there were never any sign Tex threads.

What an absurd and extremely stupid thing to say.

To be fair, those threads were the same people over and over. Go back and look at the polls, that will give a better idea. The overwhelming majority of people wanted DT to stick around as manager this season. I'm not taking a side one way or the other, I'm of the opinion that he has little to no influence on the outcome of the game so I don't care if he stays, or gets fired today.