Times like these...

[Lucky Jim]

Well, actually, I was busy talking with (get this!) *lawyers* until a few minutes ago. I realize it might seem that I have nothing going on except stuff here, and that if I don't post every 10 minutes then I'm dodging something, but things aren't that simple...

Hey, don't drag me into this cat-fight. I was just joking about your logorrhea.

[Miller192]

I tried reading that whole thing but lost focus half way through it.

Did Shack say he was leaving by any chance?

[Ohfan67]

I've been reading this site for years. 95% of Rshack's posts are criticisms of other posters and defending the status quo of the Baltimore Orioles. No critique of baseball. Never any evidence of frustration of a decade plus of losing. Kind of amazing.

Tony should be extra proud of his site. This site is so powerful that it can control the content of regional and national media. Instead of dumping on Rshack, maybe all the posters should be patting themselves on the back. Just think of how powerful you are! You control the media, even the national media, since they've been talking about Trembley's future or potential lack thereof.

[ChaosLex]

I've been reading this site for years. 95% of Rshack's posts are criticisms of other posters and defending the status quo of the Baltimore Orioles. No critique of baseball. Never any evidence of frustration of a decade plus of losing. Kind of amazing.

Tony should be extra proud of his site. This site is so powerful that it can control the content of regional and national media. Instead of dumping on Rshack, maybe all the posters should be patting themselves on the back. Just think of how powerful you are! You control the media, even the national media, since they've been talking about Trembley's future or potential lack thereof.

All part of Tony's plan to stage a coup of the national government.

I just hope I'm part of the cabinet and not shipped off to the gulag.

[RShack]

Hey, don't drag me into this cat-fight. I was just joking about your logorrhea.

I admit it, I had to look it up.

I forget who I'm quoting here, but... Sorry for the long response, I didn't have time to write a short one...

[Pedro Cerrano]

Whoever came up with RTrea yesterday is a genius.

You're welcome!

[TGO]

I propose we merge them into JRTreakleford.

It's a long name, but worth it.

[Lucky Jim]

I admit it, I had to look it up.

I forget who I'm quoting here, but... Sorry for the long response, I didn't have time to write a short one...

Admit it, it's a great word. And there was no criticism implied - hunt & peck away. I'm just sitting back in amusement at it all.

[Birds of B'more]

Rshack is the anti-Trea

But together they are the most unifying forces in cyberspace. Nowhere else have I seen so many people, with such widely differing viewpoints, so singularly united as all of us are when either one of these two starts spewing their drivel. It's kind of nice, actually. Gives me hope for humanity.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Oh, my...

Well, let's see... I think there are a few parts to this (leaving out the mindless hate-BS). Responding to what's been said will not be short, so those of you who don't like to read might as well move on right now and save yourself some work.

I can certainly understand that people don't like the bolded part below...

I recognize that I have a very-minority opinion about this. To me, it appears that only a very few people were calling for DT's head prior to the by-now-famous Frobby post. Some were, a few, but not many. But then, once Frobby said it, the tide rapidly turned. As I understand it, many people feel that was just a coincidence, that DT's lack of immediate televised response to the Lugo thing somehow managed to make lots of people think DT should be fired, and that Frobby just happened to be the first convert to say it out loud.

As I said before, I don't believe that for one second. I believe that Frobby has significant influence around here (which I believe he has earned, whether he wants it or not), and I think Frobby's post set off a chain reaction of folks who suddenly decided DT's time is up, even though most of them never said that before. I think a lot of folks thought (more or less) "Well, jeez, if that's what Frobby thinks, well, I guess his time is up." I realize that many folks don't like that opinion. After all, nobody wants to view themselves as somebody who's piling on, even if they are. Therefore, the idea that it was a bandwagon thing is something that many folks don't like one bit. At the same time, how anybody can spend much time around here and not observe frequent bandwagon tendencies is beyond me. Bandwagon stuff happens a lot. It just does. IMO, the fire-DT uproar from yesterday is but one very recent and very large example. I understand that people don't like that opinion. However, the unpopularity of it doesn't mean that I don't have it. I do have it. I think the fire-DT uproar was very much a bandwagon thing. There is zero doubt in my mind about that. I might be wrong, but is what I think. I pretty much asked for a lot of crap for saying it out loud.

One minor thing about the players being faced with it...

I think the bolded part above is a big stretch. I think it is not only plausible but very likely that Zriebec was aware of the sudden major uproar, and responded to it by asking questions, all of which was perfectly appropriate on his part. I don't see how anybody would be so sure that it "had nothing to do with it". I never look at the Sun board, so I don't know what happened there. But face it, yesterday it was a very big stink around here. In fact, it was the biggest one in a long while, with thread after thread after thread focusing on it. I think that's a bit unrealistic to assert that it was just a coincidence.

There is second issue, apart from the fire-DT thing, and it's one that I can't believe people really believe is out of line. They might not like it, but I think most folks would admit it's actually true. It's the bolded part in the section below:

I see some very indignant How-dare-you's about that, followed by the usual stuff about people bleeding orange-and-black... as if posting a lot of negative stuff and trashing Oriole players and coaches is somehow showing support for them. Evidently, some people take umbrage at the idea that message-board traffic routinely features a predominant tone that turns against the team when things are going badly. IMO, to deny that happens is evidence that somebody is living in la-la land. All it takes is a 3-game losing streak and many folks are ready to jump out the window. If a rough spell gets longer and longer, the level of vitriol gets higher and higher. People stand in line to attack various guys on the team, everybody from part-time players clear up to the GM. It happens like clockwork. Now, whether that's appropriate behavior is not the issue. People can have perfectly reasonable disagreements about that. But to pretend it doesn't happen is just goofy. It happens like clockwork. You can count on it, just as much as you can count on death and taxes. So, when people get insulted at the idea that message-board fans turn on the team when times are hard, well, that's just a case of people denying reality. It's a very observable fact. In fact, I think everybody knows it's true, but some folks seem to think it's somehow out of bounds to admit it. Here's my take on it: On the one hand, we have people who sound oh-so-tough when it comes to trashing whichever Oriole they happen to be mad at in the moment, but on the other hand, if somebody simply points out that people start spouting vitriol against Orioles when things are going wrong, they get all insulted. To me, this is a classic example of people who can dish it out but can't take it. I agree that you have every right to trash Orioles if you want to. I understand that it is a normal part of what goes on in fandom. But to deny that it happens, and then get mad because somebody points it out, is rather lame.

As for the main point I was making, we seem to have two points of disagreement. For example...

I never said it would fix anything on the field. To the contrary, here's what I said:

So, for those of you who think it won't be a magic fix, I completely agree with you... in fact, I said it in the OP.

The second point of disagreement is that some folks think that the presence of guys like Palmer and T-Bone somehow provides grounds for dismissing what I said. For example,

I think you are missing something important. The guys you mentioned are essentially part of the everyday work environment. While they have different jobs, they are there because of their jobs. They are part of the everyday work routine. From my point of view, having them around is not at all the same thing as having family show up to be there when times are hard. I think there's a big diff between having Oriole employees show up vs. having guys show up who aren't there because it's their job to be there, but who show up because they're Oriole family and are showing up because they choose to, to be supportive when times are hard.

Throughout all this, there is another issue that seems to be pervasive here, and that's whether there is any positive value in being supportive of the team. It appears that some folks believe that these guys are paid to do a job, and deserve all the crap that posters can dish out whenever they fail to do that job well. It's the old "hold them accountable by criticizing them" philosophy. I fully recognize that there are a fair number of people here who believe in doing that. It's beyond any doubt that some folks like to do that. All you need to do is read what gets said around here after the team drops 3 in a row. People are standing in line to "hold them accountable". Now, am I saying people are somehow not permitted to do that? No, of course not. It's completely normal. I fully agree that people have every right to say what they think, and if that means trashing Orioles when things go wrong, that's what they're gonna do. I am not advocating censorship about any of that.

What I am saying is that turning on Orioles and spewing vitriol at them is not the only valid response. While doing that is normal, it is also entirely normal for fans to support their team when times are hard. It may not be normal on message-boards or shout-radio, but it is pretty normal in other parts of fandom. Lots of fans get frustrated but don't feel the need to spew a lot of negative crap. Lots of fans can be frustrated and still support the players and coaches, and hope for them to find their way out of the mess they've been in. There's nothing at all unusual about that, except on message-boards and shout-radio. The problem is that vitriol on message-boards and shout-radio is what gets attention. That's the stuff that players hear about, and then get asked about. To deny that this is true is ridiculous. The simple fact is that, when times are rough, message-board posters turn against them. This is very, very true, and anybody who is being honest with themselves knows it's true. Whether you think it's appropriate or not is beside the point. The point is that it happens, and it happens very reliably.

So, in the face of that overwhelmign stream of criticism whenever times are hard, I think there is indeed positive value in having former Oriole greats show up. Not because they're paid to be there, but because they feel they are part of the family and therefore want to be there, just to support the young guys who are just getting started as Orioles. The old guys might not know what it's like to be in last place, but they do know what it's like to be in a clubhouse when things are going wrong. They know what it's like to face criticism from people who have no clue what it's like. And they know what it's like to be in a stretch when you can't buy a hit when you most need one. How anybody can think it's not a good thing for the players and coaches to feel like somebody is there to support them when times are hard, well, I just don't understand that. I just don't.

And if that support is gonna come from only a few people, while the main visible response is a loud stream of criticism on message-boards and radio, then what better few people could it possibly be than guys who have MVP's and rings and Cooperstown plaques that they earned while wearing a shirt that said "Orioles" on the front? I don't see how anybody can argue with that... unless of course you think the current players and coaches who are struggling deserve only input that is predominantly critical and negative. You can think that if you want, but I don't. I think that's just crazy. There is certainly no requirement that you try to put yourself in their shoes, but dismissing the idea that somebody else can and should, and that it might best be somebody who actually knows what it's like to face tough times and come out the other side being a champion, is IMO short-sighted to the point of being almost blind.

[frankpembleton]

The thing that gets me about all of this Rshack spew is he keeps talking about "when times are bad" as if times are ever good with this team. Seriously, it's 13 years now. That's historic incompetence. Other than the Pirates, what other fanbases throughout Major League history have been through a stretch like this?

There's no defending this crap and Rshack writes novels trying to do so while also putting down virtually every single fan of this team. Really, there are like 5 total optimistic Oriole fans left in the vain of Rshack - one of them being TravisMoon from the Sun boards.

[Tank]

What a joke of a thread. Please do everyone a favor RShack, stop posting here.

[Icterus galbula]

I was born in 1985. For many reasons, this has been the most depressing start to a season I can remember. I think people have every right to complain about the current state of the team. I think removing Trembley is at this point justified, but I myself wouldn't give him the pink slip yet, mostly because I want to see through the NY and BOS series first.

I don't think Shack has the right to criticize other fans who want to see him go, but I think there are a couple of points made that are legitimate.

I tend to agree that Frobby making his thread made it "okay" to vocalize firing Trembley. Thats not to say people are sheep, but that he is so respected that his ideas are bound to be influential.

I agree that negativity and people calling for your head do not help the team or their morale. The criticism is justified, but I'm of the mindset that freaking out almost never helps. I also agree that when times are hard, people tend to need support the most.

I'm not saying we should create excuses and a falsely positive atmosphere, just that the above are valid points and that if a fan wants to remain optimistic and not add more fuel to the hate fire- that is their right and can be a good thing.

Lastly, we're all in the same creaky boat, suffering through the same terrible conditions while lost at sea. What good does strangling one another do? (And I mean that about all threads and any hostility back and forth)

[TonySoprano]

I think it is not only plausible but very likely that Zriebec was aware of the sudden major uproar, and responded to it by asking questions, all of which was perfectly appropriate on his part.

In other words, Zrebiec is a total idiot for not being able to think on his own, this was a possibility , despite a 2-14 record?????? Pay not attention to the preseason articles that had Trembley as one of the managers on the hot seat. Pay no attention to the fact that MacPhail declared we were entering the next phase where wins and losses actually mattered. Nope.

It has to be the OH bandwagon theory ipso facto.

I'm going to take up a collection to buy shack a miner's helmet with an O's logo because the hole he has dug for himself is getting quite deep.

[RShack]

In other words, Zrebiec is a total idiot for not being able to think on his own...

No, those are your words, not mine. You can criticize all you want, but please keep your words out of my mouth.