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Phillies fan ran onto the field, got tasered by police


jamesenoch

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This really becomes an issue of what force is excessive force. Since it is nonlethal force, there is obviously a lot of leeway there for law enforcement. I'm saying that there should be a reasonably articulable suspicion that the person is armed and/or dangerous prior to use of tasers. Simple noncompliance should not be enough.

I agree with this.

A long time ago, I worked in psych hospitals, first at Sheppard-Pratt, then at others. I started out as a Psychiatric Aide and worked my way up. One thing that Aides sometimes have to deal with is people getting violent. The worst ones are the wiry guys: when they go nuts, they get incredibly strong. With simple, proper training, they can be subdued and physically handled with no harm to anyone, provided you've got 3 or 4 guys nearby. It's not like either you need to zap a guy with a zillion volts or else you're in danger, that's a false choice. Rather, you just need to know what you're doing and how to do it. The proper training is neither difficult nor complicated.

Plus, on the ball field, it's just a drunk yahoo, not a crazy person who thinks the Martians and the CIA are cooperating to abduct him. I'm not so sure that video of people getting tased would discourage a stupid drunk. I think it's just as likely that he'd think it wouldn't bother him because he's so tough (and drunk). I think not showing this stuff on TV is best policy, tasers or no tasers. I think there's lots of stuff we'd see a lot less of, if only TV would not make a big deal out of it...

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Well that's just the thing. You have no idea what their intent is and when someone does something that crazy I think it's a good policy to assume the worse. Protect the players, the security, and everyone else on the field. Tasers are non-lethal, guns are lethal, big difference there.

Yep, I'm with you on this one. When you run onto the field, you get what you get. If the officer feels the need to taze you, so be it. I remember when that crazed fan ran onto the tennis court and stabbed Monica Seles during a match.

What bothers me more is old ladies getting tazed into submission, like in this example:

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I agree with this.

A long time ago, I worked in psych hospitals, first at Sheppard-Pratt, then at others. I started out as a Psychiatric Aide and worked my way up. One thing that Aides sometimes have to deal with is people getting violent. The worst ones are the wiry guys: when they go nuts, they get incredibly strong. With simple, proper training, they can be subdued and physically handled with no harm to anyone, provided you've got 3 or 4 guys nearby. It's not like either you need to zap a guy with a zillion volts or else you're in danger, that's a false choice.

Plus, on the ball field, it's just a drunk yahoo, not a crazy person who thinks the Martians and the CIA are cooperating to abduct him. I'm not so sure that video of people getting tased would discourage a stupid drunk. I think it's just as likely that he'd think it wouldn't bother him because he's so tough (and drunk). I think not showing this stuff on TV is best policy, tasers or no tasers. I think there's lots of stuff we'd see a lot less of, if only TV would not make a big deal out of it...

Well those patients aren't breaking the law while simultaneously evading arrest which is what the police officer was trying to do. This is the way they look at it, and are trained for, so you can't really fault them for following procedure.

It's debatable whether tassing him is more or less dangerous than tackling him to the ground. Tassing him drops him to the ground instantly with no harm to anyone (ie it's not anywhere close to a zillion volts), tackling him to the ground may produce some broken bones or bloody faces.

Short of sweet talking the clown from breaking multiple laws they had to use force and IMO was the safest choice for everyone. I'll leave it at that because I can see where this is going.

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Well that's just the thing. You have no idea what their intent is and when someone does something that crazy I think it's a good policy to assume the worse.

A drunk running on the field is not somebody doing something crazy, it's just a drunk running on the field.

This is civil society, not a war zone, and assuming the worst is often the wrong thing to do. It pretty much guarantees that things escalate to needless levels of force, which in turn maximizes danger. This is the kind of thing where authorities face both the need and the responsibility to show reasonable judgment. Always assuming the worst is not reasonable judgment, it's substituting rigid policy for reasonable judgment.

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Well those patients aren't breaking the law while simultaneously evading arrest which is what the police officer was trying to do. This is the way they look at it, and are trained for, so you can't really fault them for following procedure.

Patients getting violent towards others are breaking the law.

Police using tasers in this situation were either (a) not implementing what they were trained to do, or (b) were implementing some inappropriate training. Some folks act like tasers are not serious weapons, simply because they don't shoot bullets. They are serious weapons, bullets or no bullets.

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Well those patients aren't breaking the law while simultaneously evading arrest which is what the police officer was trying to do. This is the way they look at it, and are trained for, so you can't really fault them for following procedure.

It's debatable whether tassing him is more or less dangerous than tackling him to the ground. Tassing him drops him to the ground instantly with no harm to anyone (ie it's not anywhere close to a zillion volts), tackling him to the ground may produce some broken bones or bloody faces.

Short of sweet talking the clown from breaking multiple laws they had to use force and IMO was the safest choice for everyone. I'll leave it at that because I can see where this is going.

Yes, but not all crimes are equal. This is not the same as the incidents where base coaches were attacked. This is clearly drunk shennangins. It borders on kids being kids. It's stupid, but tasering should not be a punishment. It should be a nonlethal way of controlling a dangerous situation. This was not dangerous. I am 100% certain that the crowd, on average, was actually enjoying the delay. I've been to games where this has happened. It's pretty funny w/o tasering.

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Well those patients aren't breaking the law while simultaneously evading arrest which is what the police officer was trying to do. This is the way they look at it, and are trained for, so you can't really fault them for following procedure.

It's debatable whether tassing him is more or less dangerous than tackling him to the ground. Tassing him drops him to the ground instantly with no harm to anyone (ie it's not anywhere close to a zillion volts), tackling him to the ground may produce some broken bones or bloody faces.

Short of sweet talking the clown from breaking multiple laws they had to use force and IMO was the safest choice for everyone. I'll leave it at that because I can see where this is going.

I agree. What if they guy has a knife on him or a needle or whatever. What if he flips out when the guards tackle him and punches one in the temple? There are lots of what ifs. I could understand if he had given up and the guards then tasered him, but if he's going to run around like an idiot, taser his butt.

Plus, it makes me laugh every time I see him face plant on the field. The only thing better would have been if the security folks gave him the safe sign.

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Yes, but not all crimes are equal. This is not the same as the incidents where base coaches were attacked. This is clearly drunk shennangins. It borders on kids being kids. It's stupid, but tasering should not be a punishment. It should be a nonlethal way of controlling a dangerous situation. This was not dangerous. I am 100% certain that the crowd, on average, was actually enjoying the delay. I've been to games where this has happened. It's pretty funny w/o tasering.

But how do you know it was not going to become dangerous? Do you know his intentions? Once he doesn't surrender, I have no problems with him being tasered.

It would have been funnier though if they had hit him in the face like in The Hangover! :D

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Do I cheer when a guy hops the wall and starts running on the field? Yes.

Do I cheer when he's dragged across in handcuffs, trying to wave to the crowd? Yes.

Will I, if it ever happens, cheer if a cop tases a guy because he ran on the field? Definitely.

Is it hilarious? Yup.

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Fellas, many of you know I carry a taser as part of my job. I respect all opinions here, and I know it is a hot debate, but some of the comments here made me want to give you my first hand two-cents. Stop here if you don't want to know the facts.

Tasers are NON-LETHAL force, as they are not likely to cause death or great bodily harm. Guns are LETHAL force and they fire a projectile through the use of an explosion, as they are likely to cause death or great bodily harm. To say that tasers should only be used in deadly force situations is short-sighted and well, ridiculous. Five seconds of pain and then, it's over. I've been tased a few times, it sucks. But it's better than getting tackled and breaking an arm or leg. It's better than getting hit with a baton, which the officer could have also done. By the way, batons often break bones. It's better than having a chemical agent sprayed in your face, which takes 30 minutes to an hour to recover and a big snot-string hangs from your nose. (Although that is pretty funny to see as well.) :D Five seconds and you're done....that is if you now do what the nice police officer says. ;)

The bottom line is there has been a sharp decline in injuries to both the arrestees and the officers since the inception of the taser. Most of the deaths I know of involving tasers, and I have done quite a bit of research on this in the past, is when the deceased was tased with enough cocaine or meth in their system that they were considered to be an OD of life threatening circumstances without the taser. There is some evidence to suggest heart conditions may make the suspect more vulnerable to a deadly encounter, but that has not been empirically proven that I am aware.

I'm not sure why you think we should just chase drunks around the field until we can corral them. I'm in my 40's and my knees have seen better days. After 16 years on this job with several hundreds of fights and foot pursuits and SWAT training/deployments and everything else, why should it be some jerkoff's right to run around the field and make me chase him for longer than I should? I don't run nearly as well as I used to. You put on 25 pounds of gear and run after someone, see how you like it. You may think it's our job to look like keystone cops chasing some 20 year who runs like a deer all over the field, but reality is, that is not my job. My job is to end it as safely (for all parties) and as quickly as I can. I would much rather people not do stupid things, but when they do, I have to act.

And, really, how do you know he wasn't going to attack a player, a coach or an umpire? Do you really know? Kansas City ring any bells? They were just drunk idiots too.

I invite all of you to Orlando....please come on down and do a ride-along with me. (And no, Disney is actually in the jurisdiction of the Orange County Sheriff's Office. Orlando is actually one of the more violent cities in the US per capita, believe it or not.) Or do a ride-along in any major city. Some people think they know what it's like because they watch cops on tv. If you've never walked in our shoes, then how can you tell us how to do my job? Or judge us?

I doubt I have changed any opinions here. Those who agree, probably already felt that way before. It is too easy to sit back in your lazy-boy and watch things unfold on tv, and say to yourself that you could do better. Teddy Roosevelt wrote about "the one in the arena," look it up for a good read. We are all welcome to our opinions, now you have mine.

The Philly cop did a great job!

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This really becomes an issue of what force is excessive force. Since it is nonlethal force, there is obviously a lot of leeway there for law enforcement. I'm saying that there should be a reasonably articulable suspicion that the person is armed and/or dangerous prior to use of tasers. Simple noncompliance should not be enough.

I guess tasers are better than using batons...it's just never a good PR move and it overshadows the good work that law enforcement officers are doing everyday. It's a lot easier for most people to put themselves in the position of the tased than the officer.

So what you are saying is that if you know they aren't concealing a weapon, then there is no need to taser the suspect? And here I was hoping they would taser a streaker.

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For those who would rather them not use a taser in this case, what should they do?

- Tackle him? And if so, would you not agree that there is more risk of long-term harm to both him and the officer in that case (broken bones, torn ACLs, knocks to the head).

- Let him run until he gets tired and falls down, or goes off the field? And if so, how long do you give him?

I might be in the minority, but I see taser as a better, even more humane, option than pure violence like tackling the guy.

And again, "boys will be boys, and folks have been doing this forever!" is not a good answer. He is taking an action that has consequences. Obviously there should be limits to what is done (I would never say "shoot him," obviously.) But I think taser might be the best option. Just because it is new technology, doesn't mean it is evil.

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The police shouldn't have to be chasing some idiot around. I'd tase him too. I would have tased him way sooner than they did.

And showing this stuff on TV would just make more people do it, whether or not they got tased. They're just idiots that want to get on TV or Youtube.

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