Phillies fan ran onto the field, got tasered by police

[Tony-OH]

For example, one of my neighbors is a cop and this morning I asked him if he saw the Philly thing. He said I was the 5th guy to ask him about it. He said that cop is probably gonna get his taser taken away and his gun too, at least for a while. He called the guy a 5-letter word for cat that begins with "p", and said that guy needs to get himself in shape. He said the police officer's job is to show good judgment and defuse a situation, not escalate it. He said the last thing a cop is supposed to do is to unholster a weapon unnecessarily. He said every time they pull a weapon, it's 20 minutes of paperwork and he says it should be. He also said that the worst thing a cop can do is put on a show of unnecessary force in public, because it affects how some people view police officers in general. Now, are you gonna diss him too?

I will. I'll take a cop like Jammer over your wussy neighbor who's worried about the 20-minutes of paperwork instead of safely ending a potentially dangerous situation. If that guy had pulled a knife and stabbed a player you'd be the first person on here crying that the police didn't do enough to stop him.

The situation ended safely with no one hurt. Great job by the police officer. End of story.

[Birds of B'more]

Oh, stop with the red herrings. You insist that disagreement with you is somehow dissing police. I have done nothing that bashes the police or other public safety professionals or that minimizes the good work that police officers do. I have bashed and minimized your lame stunts. Why don't you quit equating "supporting the police" with agreeing with you. It's not the same thing. Quit hiding behind your badge, and quit pretending you speak for police officers everywhere. You don't. No one police officer does. For example, one of my neighbors is a cop and this morning I asked him if he saw the Philly thing. He said I was the 5th guy to ask him about it. He said that cop is probably gonna get his taser taken away and his gun too, at least for a while. He called the guy a 5-letter word for cat that begins with "p", and said that guy needs to get himself in shape. He said the police officer's job is to show good judgment and defuse a situation, not escalate it. He said the last thing a cop is supposed to do is to unholster a weapon unnecessarily. He said every time they pull a weapon, it's 20 minutes of paperwork and he says it should be. He also said that the worst thing a cop can do is put on a show of unnecessary force in public, because it affects how some people view police officers in general. Now, are you gonna diss him too? Are you gonna say that you speak for all cops and he doesn't?

Based on what I saw, that's exactly what the officer on the field that night did.

[RShack]

Sadly, of all the cops in Philly, the one who ran out with his taser drawn as his *first* option was not among the many police who show good judgment. In the subsequent on-field event, his replacements did much better. If the first one was so correct about following policy when he tased the guy, how come they didn't pull a taser the second time? How come cops in other ballparks don't do it? How come cops routinely deal with on-field pranksters without using a weapon?

Funny how nobody addresses the substantive point...

[RShack]

I will. I'll take a cop like Jammer over your wussy neighbor who's worried about the 20-minutes of paperwork instead of safely ending a potentially dangerous situation.

That's not why he said it was inappropriate. He was pointing out that a professional does not pull a weapon lightly.

As for being "wussy", he's got a Silver Star and a Purple Heart with 2 clusters from Vietnam, and he's been shot in the line of duty as a cop.

[byrdz]

For those saying that this kid wasn't a threat, how do you know that? You don't know what he's going to do. We don't need another Seles or Kansas City 1st Base Coach incident on our hands. You break the rules you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences. The guy got what was coming to him.

Yep, there was no way of knowing what he would do, or what state of mind he was in. The concept that security didn't have a video to watch over and over before deciding to use a taser escapes some. For all we know he was huffing angel dust and goofballs before he jumped on the field.

Although, I'm beginning to think it was a mistake, because as dumb as Philly fans are this is just more incentive to jump on the field, "Hey dude! Watch me run around until the police zap me!"

Jammer, I'll be requesting you in case of a civil disturbance, feel free to bring your taser.

I really don't know what the big deal is. Tasering someone is far less dangerous than tackling someone and wrestling them to the ground. Anything can happen in those cases, and as stated before, you have no idea what that person is capable of. I'd much more prefer the less physical approach, as I think most would, even possibly the arrestee. That kid was back on his feet in a few seconds and strutting around like he accomplished something. If they had gang tackled him he would have been getting up a lot slower and possibly limping back.

[Tony-OH]

That's not why he said it was inappropriate. He was pointing out that a professional does not pull a weapon lightly.

As for being "wussy", he's got a Silver Star and a Purple Heart with 2 clusters from Vietnam, and he's been shot in the line of duty as a cop.

How does he know the guy pulled he weapon lightly? Like Jammer said, it's better than a baton.

I'll retract my wussy statement about your neighbor due to his military awards but I still rather have a cop like Jammer patrolling my streets and parks.

[blid]

Action is always faster than reaction, ALWAYS. Do you wait until someone brandishes a weapon before you act? No, because you will likely be too late.

This is the last attitude I'd want from a police officer (think Diallo)... Their job is to protect the public, not to electroshock the public to stay a step ahead of them. Sorry, I don't think police officers should be initiating violence against non-violent citizens. It is a dangerous job, I know, and so do those who join the force. But when they're entrusted with police power they should use it responsibly.

Do you think it is more likely the officer who electroshocked the fan believed that fan was a threat, or that he simply was cross at him and didn't want to chase him?

If the fan was reaching into his waistband or charging a player instead of running in circles dodging security for quite a bit already, there'd be reason to use the taser. In this case it was just unnecessary use of force.

Sounds to me like the Philadelphia Police Department is backing the officer, so sounds to me like he acted properly and in keeping with their policy. In this liability conscious society, with governments agencies being run like a business, that is saying something about the officer's actions.

OMG. How often do you ever hear a police department not back an officer up, or publicly disown his actions? We come from two very different worlds, obviously, in the way we look at these things. By the way, if officers are allowed to tase a fleeing suspect, it ought to be to prevent him from getting away, not because the guy's been running in circles for 30 seconds and the officer is tired of chasing him.

[RShack]

How does he know the guy pulled he weapon lightly? Like Jammer said, it's better than a baton.

I'll retract my wussy statement about your neighbor due to his military awards but I still rather have a cop like Jammer patrolling my streets and parks.

Come on, Tony, how many fans have acted like goofballs and run out on the field? And how many times have you seen police *approach* the situation with a weapon drawn? I don't know, but I'm guessing never.

As for what he knows, here's what he told me in other conversations: He said that the normal idea about what makes a "bad cop" is some dishonest guy who's on the take. He says he's not seen much of that, except for one Sheriff who's relative was selling a large quantities of pot. He says the main problem he sees is cops who aren't bad people but who should be in another line of work, simply because they're not cut out for it. He said that includes guys who can't deal with stress and tension appropriately, who throw their weight around too much, and who overreact to situations. He says the job is about 98% boring and 2% terror. He says only a fool would not be afraid, but you can't let that govern what you do. He says the problem is guys who focus too much on the authority and power they have, and not enough on being public servants. His words, not mine...

As for this situation, he said the guy overreacted, pulled a weapon inappropriately, and will likely face consequences. He said the immediate consequence will likely be a temp desk assignment while the whole thing gets reviewed. He said he doesn't know if there will be others but, if there are, he'd guess it would be the informal, unwritten, and never-said-out-loud departmental view that he's not a guy who handles situations. He said that escalating a situation too rapidly is just as dangerous as not doing it fast enough, and that a good cop knows how to read the situation right, which this guy clearly did not do. He said the right thing to do was to just do what they normally do, then take the guy to the station, and hope the right judge is on call who will let the bozo spend a couple days in the can to think about it. He also said that the cop's higher-ups are certain to be quite unhappy that a Philly cop was shown behaving like that on TV all over creation. Again, his words, not mine.

[GeorgiaBird]

This is a lost debate, because there is no agreement on what a taser is. Shack I would answer that in years past you would not have seen a weapon drawn because there was no weapon suitable for the moment: Obviously shooting a person is inappropriate.

You seem to view the taser as a substitute for a gun, where the same rules should apply. I and others view the taser as something substantially less than a gun. Rather I see it as a weapon that was in fact designed for moments just like this when a gun is inappropriate, but when there is a need to contain and control a situation and not just let someone run around until his legs get tired.

[byrdz]

On whether or not other fans have been tased:

Vanore said it was the first time he knew of that a Philadelphia officer had used a Taser on a fan on the field. There have been instances in other cities of police using stun guns on unruly fans in the stands, including last year at an A's game in Oakland, Calif.

The players and Larussa didn't think it was excessive and have the proper perspective:

Players didn't think the officer's action was excessive.

"If you're on the streets running away from a cop, doesn't that cop have a right to Tase you because you're fleeing from a cop? So what's the difference," Phillies center fielder Shane Victorino said.

St. Louis manager Tony La Russa agreed the use of a Taser was appropriate.

"If somebody comes up there and does some damage, they're going to be second-guessing not doing anything," he said. "I just think it's acceptable, because it's a good deterrent."

Link

While some question the use of force on a teen who ran on to the field as a lark, plenty of players, baseball officials and security officers say it's difficult to make that determination in the moment. Recalling the stabbing of tennis star Monica Seles in 1993, and the beating of Royals first base coach Tom Gamboa in 2002, they stressed the need to feel safe on the field.

"You've got to do whatever you think is necessary to stop some of these fans," Giants manager Bruce Bochy said. "It's a wacko fan. I'm all for it."

"I think it's important that the players are protected out there," Houston manager Brad Mills said. "You never know what's going to happen. So many times we've had guys run on tennis courts with knives or whatever, we just have to make sure that's taken care of."

The police got no arguments from most players and coaches. Only applause.

"Fans should not be on the field. It can be scary, because you just don't know what a guy might do," Rays manager Joe Maddon said. "I think it's important to try to get a guy to the ground. In a situation like [Philadelphia's], that will deter somebody from doing that again."

Mariners pitcher Cliff Lee knows the image of a fleet-footed fan juking out a portly security guard in the outfield can be comical. But he admitted to being frightened about one getting too close.

"You never know what their intentions are," Lee said. "They have probably been drinking, or maybe have taken drugs. You don't know what they are going to do."

Reds outfielder Laynce Nix said it doesn't take a Taser-armed guard to make him feel safe on the field.

"You never know what kinds of crazies are out there, but I don't feel threatened," Nix said. "To be honest, I kind of wish somebody would come out for me. I would take pleasure in taking care of him, but I feel safe with the security."

Even a 17-year old understands:

Knowing security officers had Tasers "definitely would affect my decision" to run onto the field, said 17-year-old Matt Anderson of Hastings, Minn., who was attending the Tigers-Twins game on Thursday.

"When I first saw it, it seemed a little over the top and unnecessary for someone who wasn't causing trouble," Anderson said. "But then when you think about it, if you let that go, what are you going to let go in the future?"

Players, officials see need for Tasers

Looks like MLB and the players feel safer with tasers on the field. The kid's family and lawyer issued an apology today. No mention of excessive force.

[RShack]

This is a lost debate, because there is no agreement on what a taser is. Shack I would answer that in years past you would not have seen a weapon drawn because there was no weapon suitable for the moment: Obviously shooting a person is inappropriate.

You seem to view the taser as a substitute for a gun, where the same rules should apply. I and others view the taser as something substantially less than a gun. Rather I see it as a weapon that was in fact designed for moments just like this when a gun is inappropriate, but when there is a need to contain and control a situation and not just let someone run around until his legs get tired.

No, I fully agree that a taser is not the same as a gun. However, just because tasers are not intended to be lethal force, that doesn't mean that they are not lethal. Sometimes they are lethal, and they should be treated with the same respect as any potentially lethal weapon. My neighbor the cop says that, as of several years ago, there were something like 60 or 70 deaths from tasers. He doesn't know what the tally is now, but says that he expects it's some multiple of that, because the use of them has skyrocketed. Meanwhile, some folks seem to think that a taser is suitable as an all-purpose response for a police officer to use anytime somebody doesn't immediately obey him. It's not. While it's not a gun, it is still a powerful and potentially lethal weapon, and should not be treated otherwise.

[Tank]

This is a lost debate, because there is no agreement on what a taser is. Shack I would answer that in years past you would not have seen a weapon drawn because there was no weapon suitable for the moment: Obviously shooting a person is inappropriate.

You seem to view the taser as a substitute for a gun, where the same rules should apply. I and others view the taser as something substantially less than a gun. Rather I see it as a weapon that was in fact designed for moments just like this when a gun is inappropriate, but when there is a need to contain and control a situation and not just let someone run around until his legs get tired.

It could've been worse. The cop could've pulled an 'Observe and Report' on him...

[byrdz]

No, I fully agree that a taser is not the same as a gun. However, just because tasers are not intended to be lethal force, that doesn't mean that they are not lethal. Sometimes they are lethal, and they should be treated with the same respect as any potentially lethal weapon. My neighbor the cop says that, as of several years ago, there were something like 60 or 70 deaths from tasers. He doesn't know what the tally is now, but says that he expects it's some multiple of that, because the use of them has skyrocketed. Meanwhile, some folks seem to think that a taser is suitable as an all-purpose response for a police officer to use anytime somebody doesn't immediately obey him. It's not. While it's not a gun, it is still a powerful and potentially lethal weapon, and should not be treated otherwise.

The bolded is certainly debatable and is bordering on urban myth at this point. Amnesty International came out with a report that stated that there were nearly 400 deaths attributed to tasers since 2001, but then quickly recanted and said it was more like 50, and the others were drug related. Truth is no one knows for sure. Because a lot of the people being tased are drug addicts involved in dangerous actions to begin with. Like running from the police for whatever other crime they committed. I'd bet in a decades time you could find 50 people or more that died from trying to evade the police that wasn't taser or gun related.

Amnesty's report states that, between 2001 and 2008, 334 people died after being struck by Tasers.

"Tasers are not the 'non-lethal' weapons they are portrayed to be," Angela Wright, who wrote the report, said in a news release. "They can kill and should only be used as a last resort."

Wright said Tasers are susceptible to abuse -- easy to carry, easy to use, and with just the push of a button, severe pain is inflicted -- and without significant marks on a person's skin.

Independently-funded animal studies "have found that the use of these kinds of electro-shock weapons can cause fatal arrhythmia in pigs, raising further questions about their safety on human subjects," according to an Amnesty news release.

Toward the end of the news release, Amnesty clarifies their claim about the 334 deaths that occurred after Taser use.

"Although most of the 334 deaths nationwide have been attributed to factors such as drug intoxication, medical examiners and coroners have concluded that Taser shocks caused or contributed to at least 50 of these deaths," the news release states.

Bozeman, who said he shares Amnesty's concerns with Tasers, said a death after a Taser shock is not necessarily a death due to the Taser.

"There are a number of cases where it's very questionable that Tasers could have played a role in the deaths," he said.

Link

[Tony-OH]

On whether or not other fans have been tased:

The players and Larussa didn't think it was excessive and have the proper perspective:

Link

Even a 17-year old understands:

Players, officials see need for Tasers

Looks like MLB and the players feel safer with tasers on the field. The kid's family and lawyer issued an apology today. No mention of excessive force.

This is just a fabulous post. I agree with all of them. A taser is not excessive force and perhaps a deterrent to possible future idiots.

[PrivateO]

This is just a fabulous post. I agree with all of them. I taser is not excessive force and perhaps a deterrent to possible future idiots.

This deters me.

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