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Crowley Stats OPS+ with Age Seasons


hoosiers

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This is about three days of serving up generalities that cling to the least common denominator of your observations and hearsay/quotes of Crow that appear, on the surface, to have little statistical support.

LOL...My whole argument is based around RESULTS...RESULTS say we have been below average for TWELVE YEARS! That is enough for me...Name me another organization, IN ANY SPORT, that has employed a coach for that long with consistent subpar results.

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This is great analysis, but it appears like you set out with an agenda, and your data therefore aligns with it. In places, you seem to group the data strangely. Like Ramon Hernandez's first year with TC being broken out so that it looks like TC helped him maintain his 111OPS+. In reality, his numbers dropped off drastically. He got worse every year under TC's watch.

I'm sorry it appears that way to you. I just put statistics on an excel worksheet. I try to base my opinion on what the analysis tells me. I'm not going to defend TC if the analysis says he has done a poor job.

Regarding Ramon, I think one sees a pretty natural decline that would be expected from a catcher in his 30s and tried to present it that way. Ramon had one year at age 30 with TC in line with his previous three and then spent the next three years (the first two of those years with TC) with OPS+ of 87, 86 and 84. I could have presented the data as an OPS+ with the Os of 95 (which was a decline from the prior three years of 111) and then a decline post-TC to 84. One might then erroneously conclude there was a big post-TC dropoff - which I tried to avoid since there was not.

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LOL...My whole argument is based around RESULTS...RESULTS say we have been below average for TWELVE YEARS! That is enough for me...Name me another organization, IN ANY SPORT, that has employed a coach for that long with consistent subpar results.

You have shown nothing that Crow's hitters have performed worse with him. Zero.

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You have shown nothing that Crow's hitters have performed worse with him. Zero.

I don't need to...Your "evidence" has huge holes in it...It is meaningless.

All that needs to be shown is how has the team does, as a whole, while he has been the coach....and the answer is terribly.

That can't be denied. There is nothing that can be said that supports the TEAM has been good under Crow.

Yes, some individual guys here and there may have benefited from him...I won't deny that. But that pales in comparison to the concept of the team and how bad the team has been.

That is all the evidence I need.

Do you think Mark Wiley should still be the pitching coach? What about mazzone? Do you think Perlozzo, Maz or Hargrove should still be the manager?

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I don't need to...Your "evidence" has huge holes in it...It is meaningless.

All that needs to be shown is how has the team does, as a whole, while he has been the coach....and the answer is terribly.

That can't be denied. There is nothing that can be said that supports the TEAM has been good under Crow.

Yes, some individual guys here and there may have benefited from him...I won't deny that. But that pales in comparison to the concept of the team and how bad the team has been.

That is all the evidence I need.

Do you think Mark Wiley should still be the pitching coach? What about mazzone? Do you think Perlozzo, Maz or Hargrove should still be the manager?

As a thought experiment, if the Orioles had put up the numbers they have (generally middle of the pack) with a AA team, would that have been an argument for or against Crow?

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I don't need to...Your "evidence" has huge holes in it...It is meaningless.

All that needs to be shown is how has the team does, as a whole, while he has been the coach....and the answer is terribly.

That can't be denied. There is nothing that can be said that supports the TEAM has been good under Crow.

Yes, some individual guys here and there may have benefited from him...I won't deny that. But that pales in comparison to the concept of the team and how bad the team has been.

That is all the evidence I need.

Do you think Mark Wiley should still be the pitching coach? What about mazzone? Do you think Perlozzo, Maz or Hargrove should still be the manager?

This is like putting your hands over your eyes and screaming "BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH" while someone is trying to refute your argument.

You must realize that it makes little sense to blame Crowley for middle of the pack OPS without considering the actual players. In fact, on a player-by-player basis there is virtually no difference to their numbers when they played with him or not with him. This makes the case that the reason for our low team OPS is because we generally have had ballplayers with below-average pitch recognition and on-base skills. No coach in the world is going to turn Tony Batista into Nick Johnson.

On the last question... Mazzone in fact did very well with pitchers that actually had talent - look at Bedard, Guthrie, and Chris Ray in the 2006-07 era. Nobody has been able to do anything with DCab, or in fact any of those other pitchers he worked with.

Won't argue on the manager because his job is to win games and nothing else.

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This is like putting your hands over your eyes and screaming "BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH" while someone is trying to refute your argument.

You must realize that it makes little sense to blame Crowley for middle of the pack OPS without considering the actual players. In fact, on a player-by-player basis there is virtually no difference to their numbers when they played with him or not with him. This makes the case that the reason for our low team OPS is because we generally have had ballplayers with below-average pitch recognition and on-base skills. No coach in the world is going to turn Tony Batista into Nick Johnson.

On the last question... Mazzone in fact did very well with pitchers that actually had talent - look at Bedard, Guthrie, and Chris Ray in the 2006-07 era. Nobody has been able to do anything with DCab, or in fact any of those other pitchers he worked with.

Won't argue on the manager because his job is to win games and nothing else.

But that is the case with the managers or previous pitching coaches...So which is it...Is it the players or those teaching the players?

Why did Mark Wiley get fired?

I totally agree that the players haven't been there...But you can't use that argument for Crow and not everyone else.

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As a thought experiment, if the Orioles had put up the numbers they have (generally middle of the pack) with a AA team, would that have been an argument for or against Crow?

Huh? You mean if Bowie was middle of the pack, would that be for or against Crow?

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But that is the case with the managers or previous pitching coaches...So which is it...Is it the players or those teaching the players?

Why did Mark Wiley get fired?

I totally agree that the players haven't been there...But you can't use that argument for Crow and not everyone else.

This implies that those moves were correct, though.

Incorrect decisions in the past, or institutional scapegoating of other coaches, doesn't make this the right move now.

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Huh? You mean if Bowie was middle of the pack, would that be for or against Crow?

No. I mean, literally: if the Orioles played their MLB schedule with AA ballplayers and had the same numbers that they have had, would the results warrant firing Crow?

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This implies that those moves were correct, though.

Incorrect decisions in the past, or institutional scapegoating of other coaches, doesn't make this the right move now.

Ok fine...Then what I hope is that people arguing for keeping Crow and using the argument that he has nothing to work with also were against firing all of those previous guys for the same reasons...If that's the case, fine.

But also, why were those guys held accountable and Crow wasn't?

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Probably not....But that wouldn't happen.

Because, in the end, the "results" of a hitting coach must be judged not in the abstract, but rather on the talent level of the team he is coaching, right? It wouldn't be fair to hold Crow accountable for doing a good job with sub-par talent?

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