Givens to have surgery

[JayThomas]

A disaster? A little melodramatic. It stinks but it's not a disaster. First of all, Givens turned 20 on May 13, Machado turns 18 on July 7. So Givens is 2 years and 2 months older. Most fair minded people would say that Givens is two years older than Machado. As far as what happens if the O's choose Machado, there's no crime in switching Givens to 2B or having him get some time at SS and some other positions. It's farfetched to believe that Givens would go back to extended and SS next year. There was a decent chance that he was going to stick on Delmarva through the rest of the summer. He certainly didn't look overmatched in the few games he played with them.

Question for Stotle. Assuming Givens had not gotten hurt. Where did you project him to play next season?

Why would you switch that arm to 2B? If anything, if Machado can't stick at SS maybe switch him to 2B his body type wouldn't be quite the same issue (think Kent). Then you can go Rendon, Givens, Machado around the infield.

[Stotle]

A disaster? A little melodramatic. It stinks but it's not a disaster. First of all, Givens turned 20 on May 13, Machado turns 18 on July 7. So Givens is 2 years and 2 months older. Most fair minded people would say that Givens is two years older than Machado. As far as what happens if the O's choose Machado, there's no crime in switching Givens to 2B or having him get some time at SS and some other positions. It's farfetched to believe that Givens would go back to extended and SS next year. There was a decent chance that he was going to stick on Delmarva through the rest of the summer. He certainly didn't look overmatched in the few games he played with them.

Question for Stotle. Assuming Givens had not gotten hurt. Where did you project him to play next season?

Frederick, considering he was at LoA this year. Losing a year of development would seem to make Frederick a pretty big stretch. I'm all ears for your plan of developing Givens and Machado together. Givens to 2B? So now BAL is spending 900K on an underdeveloped 2B with plus to plus-plus raw arm strength? Can't shift Machado to 3B because that kills any reason for drafting him in the first place. I know you are a patient man when it comes to waiting out things that will prove me wrong, but I can't see how this development could be considered anything but a disaster (if Machado is the draft pick). If not, whatever. Another year. I don't think it matters if Givens debuts at 24 or 25 so long as he makes it.

[Stotle]

Ridiculous. The Orioles obvisouly believe in Givens offensive game enough that that drafted him as a SS instead of a pitcher. Even with Machado in the system, it makes sense to develop Givens as a position player. If he's as good as they think/hope they'll find a spot for him or use him as a valuable trade chip.

I wish blind faith ran more deeply in my blood.

[Arthur_Bryant]

Frederick, considering he was at LoA this year. Losing a year of development would seem to make Frederick a pretty big stretch. I'm all ears for your plan of developing Givens and Machado together. Givens to 2B? So now BAL is spending 900K on an underdeveloped 2B with plus to plus-plus raw arm strength? Can't shift Machado to 3B because that kills any reason for drafting him in the first place. I know you are a patient man when it comes to waiting out things that will prove me wrong, but I can't see how this development could be considered anything but a disaster (if Machado is the draft pick). If not, whatever. Another year. I don't think it matters if Givens debuts at 24 or 25 so long as he makes it.

I assume that Colon doesn't pose this same problem. At least not for long. The optimum situation would be that Colon signs early, gets a month and a half at Delmarva, and then starts next year at Frederick.

Could he realistically start at Frederick next year without that introduction at Lo-A?

(I have to add, I am still seriously peeved that the O's didn't go with Myers or Stassi in the 2nd round last year. They might've been more expensive than Givens, but not that much more expensive).

[RVAbird]

I assume that Colon doesn't pose this same problem. At least not for long. The optimum situation would be that Colon signs early, gets a month and a half at Delmarva, and then starts next year at Frederick.

Could he realistically start at Frederick next year without that introduction at Lo-A?

(I have to add, I am still seriously peeved that the O's didn't go with Myers or Stassi in the 2nd round last year. They might've been more expensive than Givens, but not that much more expensive).

It would be disappointing if a polished college bat picked at 1:3 didn't start his first full season at A+. I also don't think Colon would be a down to the wire kind of sign, but you never know.

[Stotle]

I assume that Colon doesn't pose this same problem. At least not for long. The optimum situation would be that Colon signs early, gets a month and a half at Delmarva, and then starts next year at Frederick.

Could he realistically start at Frederick next year without that introduction at Lo-A?

(I have to add, I am still seriously peeved that the O's didn't go with Myers or Stassi in the 2nd round last year. They might've been more expensive than Givens, but not that much more expensive).

Colon could start at AA; HiA more likely.

[Stotle]

I'm glad to see you had that much confidence in Givens. For a prospect, that you considered an experiment, and who most people expected to play for Aberdeen, Frederick in 2010 was pretty optimistic, which I thought you were anything but regarding Givens at SS. Frederick is still possible if Givens can get back in August and show something. If Givens starts next year at Delmarva, I have no sure fire solution if Machado is there as well. Certainly, Givens arm is a SS arm but I see no drawback to having a 2B with a great arm. A great arm at 2B is not a waste, it's still a weapon. An offensive 2B is still a weapon. That's not to say that Givens couldn't still get some time at SS. Not the optimal solution if you want to develop both as SS prospects, but still a solution. I just find it amusing that someone who has argued that Givens is questionable to stay at SS is now arguing for his development at SS and worrying about how they might find time for both Givens and Machado.

I think he was getting forced through, regardless. I don't see the actions for 2B any more than I do at SS, but whatevs.

The bolded may be because you have a hard time understanding that it's possible for someone to step outside of their own opinions and see things through another's eyes. In this case, I'm stepping away from my doubts and looking at this from the organization's viewpoint (which is clearly one that includes Givens as a SS). Nothing I said here changes my own opinion of Givens.

Your odd fascination with Givens being a "good" investment is too much. Disappointed if your 2nd round SS is 21 and at LoA still without finishing a year of pro ball? Not if you're RZNJ! All is well!

[Stotle]

It would be disappointing if a polished college bat picked at 1:3 didn't start his first full season at A+. I also don't think Colon would be a down to the wire kind of sign, but you never know.

I think you'll be surprised. Maybe he wouldn't be an August 16 guy if drafted 3rd overall, but in the teens...

[Stotle]

Well, you don't even believe that Givens can be developed as a SS so your comments on how this is a disaster regarding his development as a SS are even more perplexing to me. Blind faith? If you call, going by the scouting reports in BA and going with Joe Jordan's opinion, then I'm guilty.

Again, the concept of me being able to view a situation outside of my personal opinion escapes you. Nothing wrong with a Pollyanna view of Givens -- assuming Jordan is always right is a great way never to be disappointed!

[RVAbird]

I think you'll be surprised. Maybe he wouldn't be an August 16 guy if drafted 3rd overall, but in the teens...

Yeah, you're probably right. I guess I should just assume that any high profile guy signed in the first half of the first round will go close to the wire at this point unless they are a big time overdraft.

[Stotle]

Yeah, you're probably right. I guess I should just assume that any high profile guy signed in the first half of the first round will go close to the wire at this point unless they are a big time overdraft.

He wants overslot for a teens pick and MLB simply won't approve that until later in the summer (and that's assuming the deal is hashed out before August).

[Stotle]

Machado would clearly be the better prospect between he and Givens if signed. There are questions of Machado staying at SS but still a fair chance that he can stay there. In that case, you don't move Machado, you move Givens, if given that choice. All of a sudden it's a terrible thing to have a great arm at 2B? The move doesn't have to be permanent. It would depend on the offensive and defensive development of both players. I would not rule out the Orioles trying to find a way to push Givens to Frederick next year to keep both at SS full time.

This makes no sense. If you are jumping one of them why wouldn't it be the better player? BAL drafts him they are saying they think he is likely worth $5.5 to 6M and a good bet to stick at short. Your solution is to take the raw fielder with poor arm action and jump him to HiA before he's completed a pro season anywhere?

[Stotle]

Nice try at twisting my words. I never said Givens was a good investment or a good pick. I didn't like the fact that he was already 19 when drafted but heck, I'll go with Jordan's opinion and give him the benefit of the doubt. He certainly wasn't the only one high on Givens. I never said I wouldn't be disappointed if Givens was 21 and still at low A, although it's not the end of the world. When he didn't start the season with Delmarva, most assumed he'd be in SS ball this year and a 2011 start at Delmarva certainly would have been the normal progression. I just said this injury wasn't a disaster. Try sticking to what I actually say.

BTW, why would it be an odd fascination in thinking that Givens might actually be a good SS or 2B prospect. The Orioles and Jordan feel he is. You don't. Should I give your opinion more weight? Wouldn't that be more odd?

I have no interest in twisting anything, RZ. And I don't know how many times I have to say "Don't take my word for it" to you -- not that it will stop you from repeating your tired mantra above. I'm sure you'll work in a way to state I'm claiming to be smarter than Jordan at some point in the next month.

I still remember last year -- I started a thread that basically said "I know that Joe Jordan knows more than I do" and you managed to find a way to paint me as if I was claiming to be a better drafter than he. I'm past getting frustrated by you -- I just think it's adorable when you want me to be wrong about something so badly that you start making affirmative arguments the likes of what we've seen in this thread. Not sure why you get such a kick out of it, but whatever floats your boat.

I'm wrong plenty. If it isn't this time, don't worry, you can find another place to gloat. And don't worry, as with other instances, I won't hold my breath for your acknowledgment should I happen to get this one correct..

[Stotle]

Again you put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was my solution. I said it was a possibility that the Orioles might try it. You keep calling Givens raw both offensively and defensively and say he doesn't have SS actions. That may be your opinion and it might be the opinion of others you've talked to. It doesn't appear to be the opinion of everyone. The normal progression for a Machado type prospect would be low A ball. I think that's one thing you and I can agree on. What happens to Givens if Machado starts at SS for Delmarva is anybody's guess. I'm just offering up possibilities. What I would do, would depend on if/when Givens gets back on the field this year and what he shows. There is also the fact that he'll either go to instructional leage in the fall and get more time there. Who knows, there could be a fall league, like they were talking about last year for lower level players, like the Hawaiin League was. Think outside the box a little Stotle. It won't hurt you.

You can try and rile me up, but it's just giving me giggles between scouting reports. Keep 'em coming, sunshine. We all need a blast of positive thinking from time to time...

[Stotle]

Again you put words in my mouth.

I just figured it out. You don't want to be locked into any kind of position -- that's why you think I'm putting words in your mouth. You're much more comfortable sniping than you are making a statement and standing buy it. You love pointing out you think my takes are of less utility than various others'. Why not just pick one of these opinions you so respect and stand by it? Because you don't care what the "right" answers are -- you just like pointing out why my opinion is "wrong". Comfy to sit in wishy-washy land and lob stones at people who actually state an opinion and stick to it...