Steinbrenner: Torre gone if they lose this series

[RShack]

I don't agree that they are our rivals..They don't even think about us at all. The reason the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry works is because they're both always good.

I think you're looking at this through a very-narrow time-window. Until 2004, the supposedly "great rivalry" between BOS and MFY always had the MFY winning. What kind of rivalry is that? When one team wins all the time? The word for that is not "rivalry", the proper term is "abusive relationship". And, speaking of abusive relationships, until the recent period of great Oriole suckitude, the O's were the only team in baseball that had a lifetime winning record vs. the Yankees. Nobody else. Just the O's.

Our fans choose to root against the Yankees because they're always good, it's that simple.

That's not even close to true. Hating (and beating) the Yankees is the one great constant of the Oriole tradition ever since the team got here. This remained true whether the Yankees were good or bad. Now that they're good again, beating the snot out of NY is once again a key stepping stone on the way to getting pennants.

You may not be imbued with the Orioles tradition. But that doesn't mean it's not there, it only means you didn't grow up in it.

[beaner]

I think you're looking at this through a very-narrow time-window. Until 2004, the supposedly "great rivalry" between BOS and MFY always had the MFY winning. What kind of rivalry is that? When one team wins all the time? The word for that is not "rivalry", the proper term is "abusive relationship". And, speaking of abusive relationships, until the recent period of great Oriole suckitude, the O's were the only team in baseball that had a lifetime winning record vs. the Yankees. Nobody else. Just the O's.

That's not even close to true. Hating (and beating) the Yankees is the one great constant of the Oriole tradition ever since the team got here. This remained true whether the Yankees were good or bad. Now that they're good again, beating the snot out of NY is once again a key stepping stone on the way to getting pennants.

The Sox Yankees rivalry goes back to Babe Ruth, the fans have always felt it. One sided or not.

As for your second point, while you're right it's because of their success that beating them was so important back then to make us legit contenders. I see what you're saying, but we're not even close to them right now, and them losing to Cleveland certainly doesn't help our chances of getting pennants.

[RShack]

I see what you're saying, but we're not even close to them right now, and them losing to Cleveland certainly doesn't help our chances of getting pennants.

That's not the point. The point is that hating the Yankees isn't some vacuous superficial trend. It's always been a part of the Oriole tradition, no matter which team was better at the time. You may not be imbued with the Orioles tradition. But that doesn't mean it's not there, it only means you didn't grow up in it.

[beaner]

That's not the point. The point is that hating the Yankees isn't some vacuous superficial trend. It's always been a part of the Oriole tradition, no matter which team was better at the time. You may not be imbued with the Orioles tradition. But that doesn't mean it's not there, it only means you didn't grow up in it.

I've been an Orioles fan since I could walk, so I don't see your point about "tradition". In fact, it's just plain not true. I don't hate the Yankees, I love the Orioles. Saying I'm not imbued with tradition is downright ridiculous. As if it makes you or anyone "more of a fan" to hate a certain team. I love Baseball, and hold the entire sport in very high regard. It's that simple to me, it's not about hating the Yankees or any team for that matter. Maybe it sounds cheesy, but I don't care. I don't root for the Yankees, but really don't care who wins or loses this series vs. Cleveland. I don't think it makes me less of an Orioles fan.

[mweb]

Me too, and i never had that for the Yankees..Yeah, it sucked when they beat us in '96, but that's it. We've been pretty bad during their whole recent run. I just don't get it.

I usually agree with you, but I don't get how you don't get this. The Yanks are in our division, they win the division all the time, they spend way more money than anyone else, have 4 WS titles in the last 11 years, beat us consistently, fill our stadium with their annoying, cocky fans, and get tons of media love. I think that's enough reason to dislike them.

UNC was losing to Duke all the time for awhile, but you still hated Duke right? This isn't on the same level, but it's probably more like Maryland fans hating Duke.

[mweb]

I've been an Orioles fan since I could walk, so I don't see your point about "tradition". In fact, it's just plain not true. I don't hate the Yankees, I love the Orioles. Saying I'm not imbued with tradition is downright ridiculous. As if it makes you or anyone "more of a fan" to hate a certain team. I love Baseball, and hold the entire sport in very high regard. It's that simple to me, it's not about hating the Yankees or any team for that matter. Maybe it sounds cheesy, but I don't care. I don't root for the Yankees, but really don't care who wins or loses this series vs. Cleveland. I don't think it makes me less of an Orioles fan.

It certainly doesn't make you any less of an O's fan, but I think a dislike for the Yanks is pretty much an O's tradition. You're one of the very few O's fans I've ever talked to that haven't hated the Yanks.

BTW, I think a lot of Baltimore people just dislike NY teams in general.

[beaner]

I usually agree with you, but I don't get how you don't get this. The Yanks are in our division, they win the division all the time, they spend way more money than anyone else, have 4 WS titles in the last 11 years, beat us consistently, fill our stadium with their annoying, cocky fans, and get tons of media love. I think that's enough reason to dislike them.

UNC was losing to Duke all the time for awhile, but you still hated Duke right? This isn't on the same level, but it's probably more like Maryland fans hating Duke.

I always hated Duke, and always will, whether they're good or bad. I get that. And seeing them win all of the time is annoying, I'm not denying that. I guess my bottom line is that no matter what the Yankees do, it really doesn't affect the O's at all. Our fans shouldn't be THIS happy to see them lose when the O's are simply awful. They get tons of media love because they're really good. We'd get that love too if we'd stop losing every year.

[RShack]

I've been an Orioles fan since I could walk, so I don't see your point about "tradition". In fact, it's just plain not true. I don't hate the Yankees, I love the Orioles. Saying I'm not imbued with tradition is downright ridiculous. As if it makes you or anyone "more of a fan" to hate a certain team. I love Baseball, and hold the entire sport in very high regard. It's that simple to me, it's not about hating the Yankees or any team for that matter. Maybe it sounds cheesy, but I don't care. I don't root for the Yankees, but really don't care who wins or loses this series vs. Cleveland. I don't think it makes me less of an Orioles fan.

Oh, jeez, please don't start the "real fan" thing. I'm not saying anything like that. But I am saying that it is entirely normal for baseball fans in Baltimore to grow up with a tradition of Yankee rivalry. It's not just a certain age group. I know families where the kids are college-age, and that tradition is just as much true for them as it is for somebody older like me. For whatever reasons, you're not imbued with that same spirit about things. I ain't saying that makes you a bad person, I'm just saying that you somehow missed getting part of a very well-established and long-standing fundamental Orioles fan tradition. I think that's true, but I don't see why we have to go off and say that it's either "good" or "bad", it just "is"...

[beaner]

It certainly doesn't make you any less of an O's fan, but I think a dislike for the Yanks is pretty much an O's tradition. You're one of the very few O's fans I've ever talked to that haven't hated the Yanks.

BTW, I think a lot of Baltimore people just dislike NY teams in general.

I guess it's just me then. Maybe if the O's ever do compete with them, it'll give me a reason to hate them.

[mweb]

I always hated Duke, and always will, whether they're good or bad. I get that. And seeing them win all of the time is annoying, I'm not denying that. I guess my bottom line is that no matter what the Yankees do, it really doesn't affect the O's at all. Our fans shouldn't be THIS happy to see them lose when the O's are simply awful. They get tons of media love because they're really good. We'd get that love too if we'd stop losing every year.

Well whatever the Yanks do right now doesn't really affect the O's, yeah, but that the same can often be said when you're watching a Duke game or any other teams you don't like. And if the Yanks fall off in the near future, that will give the O's a better chance at contending.

What I bolded is a big part of why we get so much pleasure from seeing them lose, we don't have much else to be happy about when it comes to baseball.

The last line I agree with as you know, but I wasn't comparing the attention they get to the attention we get, just saying that the media love does get old, regardless of whether or not it's deserved. However, it's often not deserved, Jeter is the perfect example of that, he's overrated by the media by a lot, and it is annoying.

[beaner]

Oh, jeez, please don't start the "real fan" thing. I'm not saying anything like that. But I am saying that it is entirely normal for baseball fans in Baltimore to grow up with a tradition of Yankee rivalry. It's not just a certain age group. I know families where the kids are college-age, and that tradition is just as much true for them as it is for somebody older like me. For whatever reasons, you're not imbued with that same spirit about things. I ain't saying that makes you a bad person, I'm just saying that you somehow missed getting part of a very well-established and long-standing fundamental Orioles fan tradition. I think that's true, but I don't see why we have to go off and say that it's either "good" or "bad", it just "is"...

Honestly, i know you're right and it exists, but I just don't feel the same way for the reasons I stated above. I know it's not just a certain age group, and I wonder if more people in my age range 33-38ish, feel the way I do. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I have a tremendous amount of respect for a team that has had as much success as the Yankees have had recently. That's all. I'm not rooting for them to win, I appreciate their success and don't begrudge them for it for whatever reason.

All of this being said, I dislike the current Red Sox team quite a bit, but like I said to Stallion earlier in this thread, I don't get 1% of the joy when Boston loses that many on here get when New York does.

And yes, the "real fan" comeback was lame, a weak moment, per se.

[mweb]

I guess it's just me then. Maybe if the O's ever do compete with them, it'll give me a reason to hate them.

Well than I hope you start hating the Yanks soon. I don't care if you hate the Yanks or not, but are you still standing by the you don't get it comment?

[RShack]

BTW, I think a lot of Baltimore people just dislike NY teams in general.

I think it was 1969 that did that. Their guys beat our guys in 3 different post-seasons:

* O's and Mets

* Colts and Jets

* Bullets and Knicks

The first two of those were among the great upsets of all time. It was a bad year to be a Baltimore sports fan, despite the fact that we had great teams... and 100% of it was vs. NY.

[beaner]

Well than I hope you start hating the Yanks soon. I don't care if you hate the Yanks or not, but are you still standing by the you don't get it comment?

No, I get it. I wish i had the same passion to be honest. I'm watching this series, with great passionate fans on both sides and i could honestly care less who wins. It just leaves me wanting the O's to be playing in something this important.

[mweb]

I think it was 1969 that did that. Their guys beat our guys in 3 different post-seasons:

* O's and Mets

* Colts and Jets

* Bullets and Knicks

The first two of those were among the great upsets of all time. It was a bad year to be a Baltimore sports fan, and 100% of it was vs. NY.

I wasn't alive, but I was aware of that, and that must have been a brutal year for BMore fans.