Steinbrenner: Torre gone if they lose this series

[beaner]

Well, I know Mussina is a hot button, but I never was mad at the guy. To me, there's a huge diff between him leaving here just to cash in, vs. him getting treated like dirt and not being appreciated for how he played or for the discount he already gave us. I think Mussina-haters aren't really thinking it through. To me, he's one of those guys who I don't hate at all. I always want us to beat the MFY's, but if the Yankees have to win a game against somebody else, it's fine with me if Moose wins it. I think he got screwed here. I would've cheered for him the first time he came back, just to say that I appreciated what he did while he was here, and that I realized what happened.

So, it's not always black-and-white, but Mussina is a special situation. Normally, I hate a guy while he's wearing that uniform, but if he gets traded elsewhere, I stop hating him because he's not a Yankee anymore. To me, the Yankees are like The Borg... it's not about the individuals, they're just a part of something larger than them...

Totally agree that the Mussina haters aren't thinking it through. For them it most certainly all about the uniform. He was treated terribly by our Front Office and that to me is what put the Angelos hate over the top.

[mweb]

I have no problem with Moose either, in fact, I still like the guy. Don't have a problem with Arod among other Yanks either.

[RShack]

I have no problem with Moose either, in fact, I still like the guy. Don't have a problem with Arod among other Yanks either.

In terms of his Yankee-ness, ARod's just a Borg Recruit.

But as a ballplayer, he's special. I hope the young guys will pause to notice him in light of that. I'm really glad my Dad took me to see Ted Williams towards the end. I was young enough to remember only 3 things about it: he hit a dinger, even then I could tell his swing was pretty, and my Dad kept telling me to pay attention and remember. I'm also glad I had the presence of mind to appreciate what I was seeing when Mickey Mantle and Yogi Berra were around (even though both were a bit past their prime). Special guys are special guys. ARod's a special guy. When the young guys around here are semi-old-farts like me, they will be remembering ARod... and maybe appreciating him more than they do now.

To me, Jeter is the big MFY symbol more than anybody. Like Mackus said, he's both over-rated and under-rated, both at the same time. He's a special guy too, and IMO he'll deserve his place in the HOF. But he's also flawed by his own stardom. I know a MFY fan, and every year I remind him that the MFY's will not get a ring because of Jeter's Sin: when ARod showed up, he should've moved to 2B but instead he put himself first, so because of him they've got the best SS in baseball history playing out-of-position. This is the kind of thing that displeases the Baseball Gods, and every year my friend the MFY-fan gets a little more grumpy about it. To me, it's just a case of Jeter's many years as a central part of The Borg stealing his very soul ;-)

[beaner]

In terms of his Yankee-ness, ARod's just a Borg Recruit.

But as a ballplayer, he's special. I hope the young guys will pause to notice him in light of that. I'm really glad my Dad took me to see Ted Williams towards the end. I was young enough to remember only 3 things about it: he hit a dinger, even then I could tell his swing was pretty, and my Dad kept telling me to pay attention and remember. I'm also glad I had the presence of mind to appreciate what I was seeing when Mickey Mantle and Yogi Berra were around (even though both were a bit past their prime). Special guys are special guys. ARod's a special guy. When the young guys around here are semi-old-farts like me, they will be remembering ARod... and maybe appreciating him more than they do now.

To me, Jeter is the big MFY symbol more than anybody. Like Mackus said, he's both over-rated and under-rated, both at the same time. He's a special guy too, and IMO he'll deserve his place in the HOF. But he's also flawed by his own stardom. I know a MFY fan, and every year I remind him that the MFY's will not get a ring because of Jeter's Sin: when ARod showed up, he should've moved to 2B but instead he put himself first, so because of him they've got the best SS in baseball history playing out-of-position. This is the kind of thing that displeases the Baseball Gods, and every year my friend the MFY-fan gets a little more grumpy about it. To me, it's just a case of Jeter's many years as a central part of The Borg stealing his very soul ;-)

See, this is all I'm looking for to be honest. Clearly, while you hate the Yankees, you can still appreciate some of their greatness. You obviously respect Jeter and A Rod as players.

Many on this board don't even go that far, and that's what bothers me. It's always "Yankees Suck", "Evil", all of that crap, and not saying the things you said above. A Simple, yea, I hate them but A Rod is a special player is ok to say. Instead of crediting the umps and the media for their greatness. Terrific post.

[mweb]

See, this is all I'm looking for to be honest. Clearly, while you hate the Yankees, you can still appreciate some of their greatness. You obviously respect Jeter and A Rod as players.

Many on this board don't even go that far, and that's what bothers me. It's always "Yankees Suck", "Evil", all of that crap, and not saying the things you said above. Terrific post.

Little bit of an exaggeration there imo, it's not always like that, and even when people do say that, it doesn't mean they think the guys are bad players. I think you might be reading too much into the type of comments you refer to.

[beaner]

Little bit of an exaggeration there imo, it's not always like that, and even when people do say that, it doesn't mean they think the guys are bad players. I think you might be reading too much into the type of comments you refer to.

For the most part, you're right. But there are some posters on here that are ridiculous in their hatred for the Yanks, and refuse to think logically at all.

[RShack]

See, this is all I'm looking for to be honest. Clearly, while you hate the Yankees, you can still appreciate some of their greatness. You obviously respect Jeter and A Rod as players.

Many on this board don't even go that far, and that's what bothers me. It's always "Yankees Suck", "Evil", all of that crap, and not saying the things you said above. A Simple, yea, I hate them but A Rod is a special player is ok to say. Instead of crediting the umps and the media for their greatness. Terrific post.

Well, here's my theory: In any semi-large group of people, nomatter what the topic or issue is, you can pretty much count on some people acting like morons. My theory also says that a prime cause of moron-like behavior is the testosterone poisoning of youth. (At least that's my excuse when I think back on stuff I did ;-)

BTW, there's nothing recent about moron behavior. Elsewhere, I've said that finest hour of Oriole fandom was the reaction after the last game of '82. Sadly, there was also a worst moment of Oriole fandom, and that was the day that Mickey Mantle climbed the unpadded chain-link outfield fence at Memorial Stadium to try to get a dinger... and got his spike caught in the chain link fence... and when he came down with his spikes caught, it seriously screwed up his leg ... and some Oriole fans cheered that he was hurt and on a stretcher. I still wince thinking about it. And that wasn't modern-day morons either. They were old-school morons.

[Mu'ayyidSaafir]

For the most part, you're right. But there are some posters on here that are ridiculous in their hatred for the Yanks, and refuse to think logically at all.

I don't fault you for not hating the Yankees. It's the liking the Yankees more than the Red Sox that's puzzling for me.

[Old#5fan]

I hate the Yankees but primarily because they buy their players and stack their team all the time. However, the main reason for this and why I despise them the most is their arrogant owner who I think is the biggest nutjob in sports. Joe Torre is a class act (Yankee manager or not) and he does not deserve the ridiculous treatment that Steinbrenner shows by publicly stating he will be fired if he doesn't win the Cleveland series. What does this idiot (Steinbrenner) think that Torre is a player? He doesn't control what they do on the field and no other manager would either. If I was Torre I would quit after this season regardless as I would not want to work another day for that clueless jerk Steinbrenner.

[RShack]

I don't fault you for not hating the Yankees. It's the liking the Yankees more than the Red Sox that's puzzling for me.

Yeah, while hating the MFY's might be optional, the idea of *liking* them more than anybody, well, that's a hanging offense right there. (Trying to be fair and open-minded has its limits ;-)

[RShack]

I hate the Yankees but primarily because they buy their players and stack their team all the time. However, the main reason for this and why I despise them the most is their arrogant owner who I think is the biggest nutjob in sports. Joe Torre is a class act (Yankee manager or not) and he does not deserve the ridiculous treatment that Steinbrenner shows by publicly stating he will be fired if he doesn't win the Cleveland series. What does this idiot (Steinbrenner) think that Torre is a player? He doesn't control what they do on the field and no other manager would either. If I was Torre I would quit after this season regardless as I would not want to work another day for that clueless jerk Steinbrenner.

I think Steinbrenner is what help makes Torre good. When he managed before, he earned a rep of not caring too much about anything except where the nearest good Italian restaurant was. With Steinbrenner, that's an asset. If Torre was all super-intense like Billy Martin, and you mix that with Steinbrenner being super-intense about winning-now, there'd be huge blow-ups every week. I think Torre has just the right amount of macho-presence and "What, me worry?" attitude that Steinbrenner doesn't even try to push him around, and instead just occasionally uses the press to apply pressure. We'll see what happens, but so far, Torre is the only guy where George never follows through on his threats. In essence, I think Torre's attitude and bearing have made him semi-immune from George's stunts, which in turn makes everything better for the team. The players like him in some part because they know that he sorta insulates them from Steinbrenner's crap. I don't think Torre would do as well if the situation wasn't Steinbrenner-crazy. I think the aspects of Torre that were weaknesses elsewhere turn out to be assets in that particular environment.

[beaner]

I don't fault you for not hating the Yankees. It's the liking the Yankees more than the Red Sox that's puzzling for me.

I never did until this year to be honest. If forced to choose, I choose the Yanks. It's not that I "like" them better, it's more that I simply dislike Boston more. Does that make any sense at all?

[Boy Howdy]

If forced to choose, I choose the Yanks. It's not that I "like" them better, it's more that I simply dislike Boston more. Does that make any sense at all?

I guess so, kinda.

My brain has been forced to endure the phrase Yankees-Red Sox so many times that's basically blended together into one big yankeesredsox that's all the same.

Telling fans of either of those teams you can't tell them apart is a good way to set them off too.

However, I'm not much older than you, and I was raised with a clear sense of Yankee hatred from seasons like 1980 when we won 100 games and didn't make the playoffs.

Man, the way Weaver's teams always finished so strong, I almost wish they had the extra round of playoffs back then.

[Mu'ayyidSaafir]

I never did until this year to be honest. If forced to choose, I choose the Yanks. It's not that I "like" them better, it's more that I simply dislike Boston more. Does that make any sense at all?

I can't deny that Red Sox fandom and the media treatment of the Red Sox have gotten significantly more obnoxious over the last decade. But realistically, it could never approach the level of obnoxiousness attained in the Bronx. When the Red Sox beat the Yankees in 2004, my uncle, who is a Yankees fan, actually said with a straight face, "I don't really get upset about losses in the LCS. I'm a YANKEE fan: we only get truly upset when they lose in the World Series." As someone who takes more than a casual interest in sports, and who has never watched his favorite team play in a World Series, this is simply not relatable for me. I can't relate to fans that consider 2002-2007, a stretch where the Yankees have made the playoffs every year, and won a pennant, a "dry spell". I can't relate to fans that can win every argument by saying "27 rings" or however many it is. I'm not saying the track record isn't impressive, I just can't relate to it or embrace it.

Nobody likes bandwagon fans. Nobody likes having their stadium invaded. Nobody likes "Fever Pitch." But as obnoxious as they can be, Red Sox fans are really just enjoying and basking in an era when their team is very, very good. That's fine with me. Yankee fans have a view of the universe where their team is bigger than baseball. Watch what happens if the Yankees' run of playoff disappearances ever ends. Get ready for a barrage of comments from the media and fans like, "it's bad for baseball that the Yankees aren't in the playoffs" or "the championship isn't special this year because nobody had to get past the Yankees." Remember when they were outraged that Derek Jeter wasn't on the All-Star team, not because he was having a great season, but just because "he's the face of baseball"? I caught a game on YES where Michael Kay was complaining because the Yankees were scheduled to be in Toronto, outside the country, on Memorial Day, even though the Yankees are America, dammit!!! They're the only fans (at least in pro sports) that see their team's history as some sort of meta-narrative, where it isn't just a timeline of fond memories and great players, it's a permanent place at the center of the sport. Maybe the '80s changed that, but now it's back, and with 24-hour sports media in place, it's stronger than ever. It may be the truth to a certain extent, but I'm not going to lay down and like it. To me "Yankees Suck" isn't a statement of fact, although I wish it were, it's a cry of defiance, that I'm not going to kiss their rings, that I don't think the Golden Age of baseball coincides with their dynasties, and that Derek Jeter might be a great player, but if he's only having a so-so season it's not the end of the frickin' world if he sits out the All-Star Game.

And I'll say it again: at this point, between Ortiz, Ramirez, Schilling, and Beckett, I'd say the Red Sox have just as many guys with great postseason resumes as the Yankees do.

[24fps]

Well, I know Mussina is a hot button, but I never was mad at the guy. To me, there's a huge diff between him leaving here just to cash in, vs. him getting treated like dirt and not being appreciated for how he played or for the discount he already gave us. I think Mussina-haters aren't really thinking it through. To me, he's one of those guys who I don't hate at all. I always want us to beat the MFY's, but if the Yankees have to win a game against somebody else, it's fine with me if Moose wins it. I think he got screwed here. I would've cheered for him the first time he came back, just to say that I appreciated what he did while he was here, and that I realized what happened. To me, that's not cheering for a Yankee, it's more like saying "Thanks... and good luck (but not against us)" to a former-Oriole.

So, it's not always black-and-white, but Mussina is a special situation. Normally, I hate a guy while he's wearing that uniform, but if he gets traded elsewhere, I stop hating him because he's not a Yankee anymore. To me, the Yankees are like The Borg... it's not about the individuals, they're just a part of something larger than them...

I usually hate "me-too" posts, but this one deserves it. Mussina showed the Orioles a lot of loyalty when he signed up for a second stint and the Orioles let him down.

It's awkward that it had to be the Yankees he went to, but altogether fitting nonetheless.

Paragraph two is very interesting. Do you think the new Yankee Stadium will end up being a big cube with all the ushers plugged into really bleeding-edge bluetooth gear?