Who knows if this is true or not...

[RShack]

500 record....

Fine. Now, who on the team is doing lousy that came up from the MiL's and has not played worth a damn since they got here? And, if you can name anybody, which you probably can't (except maybe Tillman) how much of the diff between .500 and what we've got is due to them. And if you do say Tillman, how come that has nothing to do with the one guy in the org who you like?

[TGO]

This is like the Salem witch trials.

What did you think the team record was gonna be this year, back before everything went to hell?

I'm gonna say this one time to you and then I'm going to put you ignore where you belong:

NO ONE IN THIS THREAD IS TALKING ABOUT OUR ML TEAM AND ITS RECORD.

This is not a discussion about Reimold and Wieters and Tillman. This is a discussion about Rowell, and Henson, and Hudson, and Adams, and maybe Manny Machado. You try to turn every discussion into a discussion about our ML roster's injuries and the ineffectiveness of our sophomore players.

To some extent, yes, this is a witch hunt. We don't know enough about the organization to know specifically who is doing a bad job and who needs to go. But we do know there's at least one witch. The proof is in the results. MacPhail made changes and improvements. Fine, we can congratulate him for that. But he has to make more, because we are still doing a terrible job.

[RShack]

I'm gonna say this one time to you and then I'm going to put you ignore where you belong:

NO ONE IN THIS THREAD IS TALKING ABOUT OUR ML TEAM AND ITS RECORD.

This is not a discussion about Reimold and Wieters and Tillman. This is a discussion about Rowell, and Henson, and Hudson, and Adams, and maybe Manny Machado. You try to turn every discussion into a discussion about our ML roster's injuries and the ineffectiveness of our sophomore players.

To some extent, yes, this is a witch hunt. We don't know enough about the organization to know specifically who is doing a bad job and who needs to go. But we do know there's at least one witch. The proof is in the results. MacPhail made changes and improvements. Fine, we can congratulate him for that. But he has to make more, because we are still doing a terrible job.

I don't buy your premise. First off, you admit that it is like the Salem witch trials. Second off, the claim that this is not rooted in how the ML team is doing is bogus. The ML team is exactly why the Wheel of Blame has turned to the hidden guys in the org. SG started this crap a few days ago, driven mainly my emotion and his usual insistence that everybody is stupid except him, and now others are picking up on it...

[Sports Guy]

Fine. Now, who on the team is doing lousy that came up from the MiL's and has not played worth a damn since they got here? And, if you can name anybody, which you probably can't (except maybe Tillman) how much of the diff between .500 and what we've got is due to them. And if you do say Tillman, how come that has nothing to do with the one guy in the org who you like?

Tillman, Wieters, Reimold, Bell and Snyder(and while they aren't here, they should be), Bergy..Jones wasn't brought up in our organization but you have to wonder about the instruction he has gotten in the majors at some level.

And yes, I know you asked since they came up but that is just stupid...i am talking about progression and what they are doing now.

As for TIllman and Griffin...well, Tillman has become a better pitcher, it seems, under Griffin since he has been in the organization but something is wrong right now, that's for sure. Is it his instruction? I doubt..He has a good track record. Tillman stated that he wasn't doing what they said for him to do, so it sounds more like his issue than Griffins.

[RShack]

Tillman, Wieters, Reimold, Bell and Snyder(and while they aren't here, they should be), Bergy..Jones wasn't brought up in our organization but you have to wonder about the instruction he has gotten in the majors at some level.

And yes, I know you asked since they came up but that is just stupid...i am talking about progression and what they are doing now.

Quit calling stuff stupid when it's not. What the hell does the progression of players since they came up have to do with the MiL coaches who they never see anymore? Wieters and Nolan were not lousy last year, so quit blaming that on the MiL coaches. That's what's stupid...

[carolinaoriole]

When things go to hell, people start pointing fingers at each other. So, no surprise that there are internal rifts. I don't know which of these 2 sides has the most merit to their claims. All I know is that last year people were mostly happy with Jordan and mostly happy with how kid-P's looked when they came up. Now, suddenly, some people are unhappy with both. Amazing how losing makes people do a 180.

Don't misunderstand, I am not saying that both sides of this rift are wrong. I'm saying that I have no way to know. I'm also saying that the folks who are saying, "See!!!!" were not saying that last year when they said Jordon was fine and when the team benefited from Nolan and BB coming up, and later on Matusz.

Just having internal divisions is not necessarily terrible. For example, both Earl Weaver and "superscout" Jim Russo were great at their jobs. But if one of them said "up", the other one would say "down". However, the team was good and played great, so nobody cared about that (except Russo and Weaver).

This is the 86th post in this thread and the first one to get to the truth of the matter IMO.

[Sports Guy]

Quit calling stuff stupid when it's not. What the hell does the progression of players since they came up have to do with the MiL coaches who they never see anymore? Wieters and Nolan were not lousy last year, so quit blaming that on the MiL coaches. That's what's stupid...

MiL coaches are only part of the complaint, so stop acting like they are the whole complaint....And yes, it is stupid...Pretty much everything you are saying is pretty damn stupid.

BTW, Bell, Snyder and reimold are in the minors....and part of development is setting the players up to be good for several years..not a couple of months...I understand you don't understand the difference but most do.

We all know your theories....No one should be held accountable...Everything happens that is bad is bad luck..People in place who continue to not get results should stay because its not their fault...AM can do no wrong..We get it..we know it.

[Sports Guy]

This is the 86th post in this thread and the first one to get to the truth of the matter IMO.

Now, there's a ringing endorsement!

[Frobby]

Quit calling stuff stupid when it's not. What the hell does the progression of players since they came up have to do with the MiL coaches who they never see anymore? Wieters and Nolan were not lousy last year, so quit blaming that on the MiL coaches. That's what's stupid...

MiL coaches are only part of the complaint, so stop acting like they are the whole complaint....And yes, it is stupid...Pretty much everything you are saying is pretty damn stupid.

BTW, Bell, Snyder and reimold are in the minors....and part of development is setting the players up to be good for several years..not a couple of months...I understand you don't understand the difference but most do.

We all know your theories....No one should be held accountable...Everything happens that is bad is bad luck..People in place who continue to not get results should stay because its not their fault...AM can do no wrong..We get it..we know it.

Honestly, guys, your spat is boring the rest of us. I think it is very obvious that the team has been better at selecting/developing pitching talent than selecting/developing hitting talent. Whether it's the drafting or the development, I don't know. Maybe it's both. Or maybe Jordan focuses more on pitchers because he has confidence in our ability to develop them, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is for the GM to figure out. We're not competent to do that. But yes, someone is to blame.

[Sports Guy]

Honestly, guys, your spat is boring the rest of us. I think it is very obvious that the team has been better at selecting/developing pitching talent than selecting/developing hitting talent. Whether it's the drafting or the development, I don't know. Maybe it's both. Or maybe Jordan focuses more on pitchers because he has confidence in our ability to develop them, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is for the GM to figure out. We're not competent to do that. But yes, someone is to blame.

You don't think it bores me?

[wickedwitch]

When things go to hell, people start pointing fingers at each other. So, no surprise that there are internal rifts. I don't know which of these 2 sides has the most merit to their claims. All I know is that last year people were mostly happy with Jordan and mostly happy with how kid-P's looked when they came up. Now, suddenly, some people are unhappy with both. Amazing how losing makes people do a 180.

Meh. I wrote a thread last year on how horrendous the O's are at developing hitting prospects.

[wickedwitch]

Yes, but many of the hitters we've selected have been HS hitters. How many HS pitchers have we developed into successful major league pitchers?

Many more than we have hitters. This is the list of HS/junior college hitters we've developed since 1978.

Tim Raines (not that one) - 1998 - 75 games, 174 PA, .213/.263/.281, AFO

Jayson Werth - 1997 - 736 games, 2989 pA, .269/.369/.427, NPFO

Luis Matos - 1996 - 508 games, 1773 PA, .255/.312/.375, w/ the O's 494 games, 1758 PA, .256/.313/.375

Calvin Pickering - 1995 - 95 games, 310 PA, .223/.329/.428, w/ the O's: 32 games, 75 PA, .164/.320/.328

David Lamb - 1993 - 69 games, 150 PA, .216/.273/.288, NPFO

Jesse Garcia - 1993 - 171 games, 287 PA, .216/.241/.304 w/ the O's: 31 gamees, 53 PA, .152/.220/.283

Howie Clark - 1992 - 134 games, 343 PA, .262/.329/.358, w/ the O's: 21 games, 68 PA, .283/.324/.350

Alex Ochoa - 1991 - 907 games, 2387 PA, .279/.344/.422, NPFO

Curtis Goodwin - 1991 - 431 games, 1138 PA, .248/.307/.302, w/ the O's: 87 games, 316 PA, .263/.301/.332

Scott McClain - 1990 - 44 games, 88 PA, .192/.284/.295, NPFO

Gregg Zaun - 1989 - 1204 games, 3925 PA, .251/.344/.388, w/ the O's: 146 games, 442 PA, .245/.343/.374

Ricky Gutierrez - 1988 - 1119 games, 4126 PA, .266/.338/.350, NPFO

Pete Rose (not that one) 1988 - 11 game, 16 PA, .143/.250/.143, NPFO

Jeff Tackett - 1984 - 135 games, 382 PA .217/.300/.336 AWO

Billy Ripken - 1982 - 912 games, 3015 PA .247/.294/.318, w/ the O's: 724 games, 2461 PA, .243/.292/.313

Al Pardo - 1980 - 53 games, 132 PA, .132/.152/.171, w/ the O's: 50 games, 129 PA, .135/.155/.175

Carl Nichols - 1980 - 96 games, 211 PA, .204/.274/.521, w/ the O's: 36 G, 81 PA, .233/.278/.260

Ricky Jones - 1980 - 16 games, 39 PA, .182/.308/.242, AWO

Cal Ripken - 1978 - 3001 games, 12883 PA .276/.340/.447, AWO

This is a quick list of HS/JC pitchers we've developed just since 1996:

2005 Hernandez - JC

2004 Bergy

2002 Penn

2002 Loewen

2001 Jim Johnson

2001 Chris Britton

1999 Bedard - JC

1998 Steve Bechler

1997 Sean Douglass

1997 Riley

1997 Rick Bauer - JC

1997 D. J. Carrasco - JC

1996 Josh Towers - JC

1996 John Parrish

1996 Brian Falkenborg

1996 Ryan Kohlmeier

It's not an amazing list by any means but it's worlds better than the list of hitters.