Dodgers/Giants game last night

[Moose Milligan]

Wow, anyone see this? Torre is tossed, Broxton is on the mound...Mattingly goes out to the mound to meet with Broxton and the rest of the infield...Mattingly walks off the mound, is two steps off the dirt and onto the infield when Loney asks him a question. Mattingly turns around, walks BACK onto the hill to answer Loney's question.

Apparently that counts as two trips to the mound as Bruce Bochy pointed out. That means Broxton is out of the game and they need to bring in another pitcher (turns out to be Sherrill) who hasn't had any time to warm up. Sherrill gives up a big hit, runs score, Dodgers lose.

I don't think any one of us have seen anything like that before.

[backwardsk]

The umpire can use discretion in that situation and allow Sherrill more than eight pitches. He didn't, and according to the Dodgers, he said he would. Sherrill eases into his first few tosses and then has to pitch after eight.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Atfq5JKiCppbuggYFTsx7yo5nYcB?slug=ti-mattinglyblunder072010

[bobmc]

Mattingly sucks as a manager - in fact, Art Vandalay would be better! :cussing:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Art%20Vandalay

[Nigel Tufnel]

Didn't this happen to an O's manager a few years ago? I can't remember any other details, though.

EDIT: It was Hargrove. This game.

Baltimore manager Mike Hargrove was forced to remove Julio after he went to the mound to set up the Orioles' five-man infield for Lee's at-bat. Pitching coach Mark Wiley had talked with the closer earlier in the inning.

"I stepped on the dirt, all of sudden it popped back into my mind that Mark had already been out there,'' Hargrove said.

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=230408130

[PaulFolk]

Didn't this happen to an O's manager a few years ago? I can't remember any other details, though.

EDIT: It was Hargrove. This game.

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=230408130

I also seem to remember that happening with Mike Flanagan when he was the pitching coach one year (1998?)

[BaltimoreTerp]

I want to find the rule on that, because it doesn't seem fair that a "mound visit" is any time your foot touches the mound.

I mean, what if the manager called the pitcher over towards the dugout and only walked part-way?

What if he had just turned around and kept talking without taking the step back on? What if he had never stepped onto the mound in the first place?

And in that unusual situation for the umpire not to give the incoming pitcher a chance to warm up...he should be disciplined. The Dodgers lost a critical game in a pennant race in part because of that decision.

[DrungoHazewood]

Mattingly sucks as a manager - in fact, Art Vandalay would be better! :cussing:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Art%20Vandalay

Yet another reason I hate sports talk radio: accidentally stumbled upon the MLB channel on XM and they (whoever "they" were) were discussing this. They quickly came to the consensus that this incident meant Mattingly's days as heir apparent to Torre were now over. No irony, no joking, he is seriously done as a managerial candidate.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I want to find the rule on that, because it doesn't seem fair that a "mound visit" is any time your foot touches the mound.

I mean, what if the manager called the pitcher over towards the dugout and only walked part-way?

What if he had just turned around and kept talking without taking the step back on? What if he had never stepped onto the mound in the first place?

And in that unusual situation for the umpire not to give the incoming pitcher a chance to warm up...he should be disciplined. The Dodgers lost a critical game in a pennant race in part because of that decision.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/4414/mattingly-tripped-up-by-hazy-rules

I should point out I posted what I said before reading Neyer's take. It's interesting to see both how specific and how vague at the same time the rule is.

[RShack]

I want to find the rule on that, because it doesn't seem fair that a "mound visit" is any time your foot touches the mound.

I mean, what if the manager called the pitcher over towards the dugout and only walked part-way?

What if he had just turned around and kept talking without taking the step back on? What if he had never stepped onto the mound in the first place?

Rule 8.06... a visit starts when the manager (or coach) crosses the foul line, and it ends when he leaves the 18' circle (dirt) surrounding the pitcher's rubber...

As for the what-if's, not sure...

[Don Quixote]

I see where Neyer's coming from, and if his interpretation is used, believe Mattingly should have been thrown out, which would have been better so as to protect the integrity of the matchup. Taking it even further, the second visit could have begun right when he turned around, without even stepping onto the dirt. If a visit begins once the foul line is crossed (placing the manager/coach in fair territory), and he makes a double-back to answer a question from any player on the mound while still in fair territory after leaving the mound, that could constitute the second visit even if he has not stepped back onto the dirt himself (Rule 8.06 does not specify when a visit begins...is this codified elsewhere?).

Conversely (assuming a visit begins when the manager/coach crosses the foul line into fair territory), it could be argued that since the foul line was not actually crossed (from foul territory to fair territory) a second time, a second visit was impossible regardless of what transpired. Interpretation of the importance of the initial crossing of the foul line into fair territory is key. Recall that the "second visit" involved Mattingly stepping onto the mound after his first visit, but without crossing the foul line into fair territory to get there, since he never left fair territory after the first visit. There is no language in the rule discerning whether the initial crossing of the foul line into fair territory counts for all visits that may (or may not) take place before the manager/coach crosses back into foul territory.

The rule needs to be further clarified, and altered. Under the current provisions of the rule, there is no codification of when a visit begins. If by other written guidelines it is judged to be when the manager/coach crosses the foul line into fair territory, then the language should be included in the rule. Further, the location of the conclusion of the visit should be the same as the location of the start of the visit, be it foul line or mound dirt. The circumvention portion of the rule comment should also be clarified to address players who are already standing on the mound after the first visit has concluded and have received counsel from the manager/coach. There is no mound for them to go to, since they are already there.

It doesn't get any easier, does it?