Suddenly we have Depth at SS

[Singleton]

Seriously, the very last thing I'm worried about is the "problem" of too many shortstops in our system. I'd be thrilled if we have just 1 highly promising prospect who seemed likely to have the D to stick and have a bat to go along with it. Miclat is not that guy for me.

[Jammer7]

I think he'll have the same accuracy issues at 3B that he would at SS, and his bat is likely WAY light for hot corner.

That is interesting. He seems to be a solidly built kid, poor mechanics? Comments from the peanut gallery of scouts and such were that the ball jumps off his bat.

If and when they move him from SS, where to then....CF? To me, if he has fairly soft hands and atleast decent feet, you have to believe they can straighten out the throwing mechanics. Are his throwing issues related to poor footwork? He certainly has enough arm for 3B, likely just needs intstruction and reps.

[QBsILLEST1]

I have several questions and I figure this is the best thread to ask them all in. If anyone knows any of these answers, then please chime in:

- Could Givens move to 2B?

- What I heard regarding Narron's defense at draft time was "good hands, good arm, poor range" which to me indicated that he couldn't stick at SS but would be a good 3B. Is this accurate?

- Is Miclat's arm strength back?

- Is Narron likely to hit for average as a pro or is he basically a TTO guy?

- Could Givens be made a reliever at some point?

1: Yes he could, but IMO RP is more likely

2: Accurate

3: Couldn't answer you because I don't know how it was before. Right now it sounds below average

4: He should hit for average and some decent power.

5: Refer to #1

[QBsILLEST1]

Narron isn't a SS as a pro, and Machado could be joining him moving off of the six-spot. I'd imagine both will start at Delmarva as the left-side of the infield. Hopefully they have a solid season in what seams to be a tough environment for hitters. Seeing them move quickly to Frederick and then Bowie would be exciting.

Here's to hoping people won't explode if the two of them don't come flying out of the gates with their slashes. I'm very interested to see how Narron's approach translates to pro game. Machado's defense and power would be my two "to watch" tools for next year, too.

I too am interested in seeing what type of patience Machado has. Reports say he is a pretty disciplined hitter, lets see how it translates....

[Arthur_Bryant]

- Could Givens move to 2B?

It might suit his defense, but if he doesn't have the bat to play 3B, he probably doesn't have the bat for 2B either.

[eb45]

Really? 2B seems to generally be populated by weaker hitters than 3B. I'd always considered 2B about a half-step down from SS on the defensive spectrum, with 3B another full step down.

Looking at some numbers, the median wOBA for qualifying ML 2Bs so far this season is Orlando Hudson at .335. SS is Elvis Andrus' .315 or Erick Aybar's .314. 3B is Ian Stewart at .345. If Givens can put up at least a Jeff Keppinger-esque .290/.360/.400, then his bat can definitely play at 2B. He'd be a below average offensive 3B with those numbers, but a very good SS.

Now the question becomes: can he put up that line in the majors? and if not, will his defense be good enough to make up any lost value?

[QBsILLEST1]

Really? 2B seems to generally be populated by weaker hitters than 3B. I'd always considered 2B about a half-step down from SS on the defensive spectrum, with 3B another full step down.

Looking at some numbers, the median wOBA for qualifying ML 2Bs so far this season is Orlando Hudson at .335. SS is Elvis Andrus' .315 or Erick Aybar's .314. 3B is Ian Stewart at .345. If Givens can put up at least a Jeff Keppinger-esque .290/.360/.400, then his bat can definitely play at 2B. He'd be a below average offensive 3B with those numbers, but a very good SS.

Now the question becomes: can he put up that line in the majors? and if not, will his defense be good enough to make up any lost value?

Givens strongest asset is his arm....2B would be a waste of a plus-plus arm. He is really best suited for the bullpen, but I guess when you invest 900K in someone, you want more than a HS reliever...I know I would....

[Who's On 1st]

- Is Miclat's arm strength back?

QUOTE]

I never saw Greg Miclat play anywhere but in Bowie. But, I would say he plays well.

[Tony-OH]

Henson, Adams, Rowell and Snyder (he moved to ctahcer his senior year) were all High School SSs. I've seen more guys come into the system with the tag of SS, only for it to be pretty obvious they can't stick there.

Of the guys I've seen, Florimon and Rosa have the skills (certainly not consistency) to stay at SS. Miclat's arm is too weak to play there regularly.

Word is that Givens' throwing motion is a major concern to some on whether he can stick at SS. They also have some questions on if his feet are quick enough to stay there.

If there are questins about Narron's range now I can't imagine he can stick at SS, but of course I'll remain cautious until I see him for myself. Hell, some even think Machado will grow out of the position.

I don't think there is ever depth at SS. I think what we have is a lot of guys who can play or have played the position but I bet most will be moved before they show up.

[BRob51]

Before we move Givens to RP, I think we should consider moving him to CF. At the time he was drafted, he was supposed to be one of the top athletes in his class. He has a plus arm and with good speed I think we could convert him to a pretty decent CF, especially if his SS problems are related to throwing mechanics.

[RVAbird]

Really? 2B seems to generally be populated by weaker hitters than 3B. I'd always considered 2B about a half-step down from SS on the defensive spectrum, with 3B another full step down.

Looking at some numbers, the median wOBA for qualifying ML 2Bs so far this season is Orlando Hudson at .335. SS is Elvis Andrus' .315 or Erick Aybar's .314. 3B is Ian Stewart at .345. If Givens can put up at least a Jeff Keppinger-esque .290/.360/.400, then his bat can definitely play at 2B. He'd be a below average offensive 3B with those numbers, but a very good SS.

Now the question becomes: can he put up that line in the majors? and if not, will his defense be good enough to make up any lost value?

This is actually a fairly heavily debated issue. The reality is that the average production from 2B is just a hair below that of 3B. Their marginal positional values are subsequently almost identical. Take a look at fangraphs ratings for starting 2B vs. starting 3B and then starting 2B vs. starting SS and you'll see that the consensus opinion is to value production out of the 4 hole similarly to that of the 5 hole.

This is counterintuitive for a couple of reasons. First of all, we tend to group "up the middle guys" into one category and "corner guys" into another. The other reason is that there are a handful of third basemen who are monster bats and they stick in our minds. Even many of the lesser bats at 3B produce their fair share of power. What you see at 2B is generally less power but better contact skills and OBP. There are some awful bats starting at 3B in MLB, but we tend to gloss over them because of the elite bats there.

Despite the fact that average production at 2B and 3B are similar, the fact remains that the ceiling for 3B is much higher. There are a handful of 3B bats that blow most of the best 2B bats out of the water. Considering there are only about 30 starting jobs at any position in the ML, you have to weigh ceiling accordingly. We are dealing with the best of the best. I am posting from a very slow computer but I believe this article discusses some of what I'm saying:

http://community.sportsbubbler.com/forums/t/92384.aspx

This chart suggests some conclusions that are presumed by many fans: The best bats on the diamond are at 1B, RF, and LF, with the worst bats coming at C and SS. This fits the profile of the defensive spectrum rather well, with a few surprises at 2B and 3B (I had no idea they were that close).

Even though the average MLV produced by average-or-better 2B, 3B, and RF looks similar in its basic statement, the distribution reveals that there are significantly better bats available at RF (9 above 15+ MLV with 3 of those above 20+ MLV) than 3B (7 above 15+ MLV with 5 above 20+) and 2B (4 above 15+ MLV with all 4 above 20+ MLV).

When judging these MLV ratings according to position, we find this actual relationship between MLV:PMLV, which expresses the scarcity of resources according to a ratio of overal run production against positional run production. The correspondence, as we will see, is not near 1:1 at several positions:

2B - .96:1

3B - 1.21:1

SS - .39:1

So, the marginal positional value separates 2B and 3B some, but they are still much more similar than 2B and SS.

[QBsILLEST1]

This is actually a fairly heavily debated issue. The reality is that the average production from 2B is just a hair below that of 3B. Their marginal positional values are subsequently almost identical. Take a look at fangraphs ratings for starting 2B vs. starting 3B and then starting 2B vs. starting SS and you'll see that the consensus opinion is to value production out of the 4 hole similarly to that of the 5 hole.

This is counterintuitive for a couple of reasons. First of all, we tend to group "up the middle guys" into one category and "corner guys" into another. The other reason is that there are a handful of third basemen who are monster bats and they stick in our minds. Even many of the lesser bats at 3B produce their fair share of power. What you see at 2B is generally less power but better contact skills and OBP. There are some awful bats starting at 3B in MLB, but we tend to gloss over them because of the elite bats there.

Despite the fact that average production at 2B and 3B are similar, the fact remains that the ceiling for 3B is much higher. There are a handful of 3B bats that blow most of the best 2B bats out of the water. Considering there are only about 30 starting jobs at any position in the ML, you have to weigh ceiling accordingly. We are dealing with the best of the best. I am posting from a very slow computer but I believe this article discusses some of what I'm saying:

http://community.sportsbubbler.com/forums/t/92384.aspx

So, the marginal positional value separates 2B and 3B some, but they are still much more similar than 2B and SS.

Wow, you just dropped some knowledge on me big time....

[eb45]

I came to a similar conclusion through much less work. The median wOBA values among starting 2Bs and 3Bs are just .010 apart, and if you just take the tenth highest from each one they're also .010 apart. I was also surprised, because it went against what I had long considered to be true.

[allstar1579]

This is actually a fairly heavily debated issue. The reality is that the average production from 2B is just a hair below that of 3B. Their marginal positional values are subsequently almost identical. Take a look at fangraphs ratings for starting 2B vs. starting 3B and then starting 2B vs. starting SS and you'll see that the consensus opinion is to value production out of the 4 hole similarly to that of the 5 hole.

This is counterintuitive for a couple of reasons. First of all, we tend to group "up the middle guys" into one category and "corner guys" into another. The other reason is that there are a handful of third basemen who are monster bats and they stick in our minds. Even many of the lesser bats at 3B produce their fair share of power. What you see at 2B is generally less power but better contact skills and OBP. There are some awful bats starting at 3B in MLB, but we tend to gloss over them because of the elite bats there.

Despite the fact that average production at 2B and 3B are similar, the fact remains that the ceiling for 3B is much higher. There are a handful of 3B bats that blow most of the best 2B bats out of the water. Considering there are only about 30 starting jobs at any position in the ML, you have to weigh ceiling accordingly. We are dealing with the best of the best. I am posting from a very slow computer but I believe this article discusses some of what I'm saying:

http://community.sportsbubbler.com/forums/t/92384.aspx

So, the marginal positional value separates 2B and 3B some, but they are still much more similar than 2B and SS.

Must spread rep...blah blah.

Another point to consider too is that it's kind of cyclical. There are periods where you will see a bunch of 2B that are big time hitters, and periods with a bunch of strong armed 3B that are middle of the road hitters, and periods where you'll see defense valued at all 3 positions more so than the offense. It changes all the time, so not taking away from your point at all, just saying that it is the case right now, but it could change in a couple years when say guys like Alvarez and Rendon are added to the 3B stats and lighter hitting good defensive 2B are added to the mix.