What If Tejada Is Traded?

[geschinger]

I never noticed anything about Farnsworth or Ryan. Is this you or them? I said they made an all out effort to do what it takes. No one is 100% successful. I didn't know they were interested in them. How can you disparage the Tigers effort, yet defend the Orioles? I see that you are a results guy. I remember Det had the hardest time attracting hitters beacuse of the dimensions. WHat do they do ? Give lame excuses ? Cry about confederate money. They move the fences in! What else does Detroit have to do to prove their commitment? Win the WS? They're well on their way.

Closer search down to Gordon, Hoffman

Tigers close to losing out on bid for Farnsworth

I am not defending the Orioles and I'm not disparaging the Tigers. I'm saying they performed similarly in regards to free agency. The difference is their young pitching is producing and they have the best pitching in the league (by far) . The O's pitching is struggling and they have the 2nd worst pitching in the league. That in a nutshell is why the Orioles are well under .500 and the Tigers are in 1st place.

You are making the claim that the Tigers have a greater sense or urgency and purpose and that they are prone to identifying a player and then do whatever is humanly possible to get them. I'm saying that is BS. If it wasn't they'd of offered a 5th year to BJ Ryan, they'd of found a way to acquire Farnsworth, they'd of outbid Chicago for Howry. They wouldn't of struck out an all their targets and have to settle on Todd Jones.

If the O's had been as agressive as Detroit was coming off a 90 loss season and their only FA signings were a Todd Jones and Kenny Rogers type player are you going to honestly tell me you wouldn't be attacking the O's for not doing enough when they would be well under .500 in July?

The point I'm making is that because Detroits young pitching has been so good - they lead the league in pitching - you are applauding them has having a plan, a greater sense of urgency and purpose. And because Baltimore's young pitching has not come through and they have the 2nd worst pitching in the league you attack them for not having a plan and not doing enough. If Baltimore's pitching had come through and they were leading the league in ERA and 10 games over .500 or more (very likely if they had a team ERA under 4.00), somehow I don't think you'd be attacking them as not having a sense of urgency or purpose.

As for Vlad, I don't know how to get in the Sun archives, but very early in the negotiations Vlad's agents offered a counter-proposal of 6 yrs 90 million, which is 2 million more per year than we ultimately offered and 1 million more per yr than he signed for with the Angels. Their first counter offer was 7 yrs 100 million to our intial offer of 5/65 million that eventually increased to 6/78. I can't get a link, but I got no reason to lie and (regrettably) I remember it all too well.

I don't remember all the details either although I do know it was made clear that he much preferred to play in a city w/a large hispanic population and I don't think he had any reason or was lying about that desire.

As for the Tigers counting the days for Ordonez's contract to end, I'm sure they can pass the time polishing their WS trophy.I know they're enjoying the season more than we are. Why do you care so much about Petey's money ? Are you sure you're not related ?

If they do win it all, sure that'll make up for a lot of things. However if they don't and they end up having to move a key piece of their team to free up payroll to pay a Bonderman when he's a FA or Verlander when he's due a monster arbitration raise you can bet the fans will be disappointed. I'd hate to see the O's go out this offseason and commit $30 a year to a pair of guys like Zito/Lee and then have to be told in a couple of years that we can't afford to resign Bedard when he's a FA because we are over budget.

I guess I'm an old fashioned results guy. I prefer the team winning even if they disrupt the "slot system" on draft day. I couldn't care less about the self-satisfaction of not "overpaying" for a guy like Ordonez if it gets me a WS ring.

So why all the love for Detroit? When have they disrupted the "slot system" on draft day? If you are capable of looking at more than the current season you'd realize that it isn't self satisfaction of not overpaying that is the reason not to do it. If you live in the present and don't give a damn about the future then that mindset is fine. Overpaying for a guy like Ordonez means losing the chance to sign someone later. There is a reason a vast majority of the long term big money contracts end up being contracts the signing team regrets.

I don't think we'll ever agree. But hey, you're right, the O's are getting it done! I stand corrected. They do everything right. The 9 straight years of losing is all bad luck. There's nothing we can do about it. We play in the AL East. Its too tough to compete with NYY, BOS, and now TOR.

Who ever said the Orioles are "getting it done"???? I think their plan is decent but the execution has been poor. Although they have made significant progress in the minor league system since hiring Jordan. When you start from as bad off as the O's are it takes time. Detroit was in a similar state when it hired Dombrowski and it took Dombrowski 5 years to build up the talent level in Detroit. Joe Jordan has only had two years...

[geschinger]

First off, I wasn't wrong about Detroit. You were

I made the simple statement that Detroit turned their fortunes around by overpaying for a for a few FA's back in the day. You disputed that by saying it was just their young pitching coming around. I listed the players they did this with. Another poster listed the players that I forgot. Now you're trying to change everything around and put words in my mouth. Whats the point in that? Are you really disputing that the Tigers haven't turned their fortunes around ? Or are you still disputing that one of the first things they did was overpay for Pudge and Ordonez ?

Move on

I need to, you aren't grasping the point. If signing Ordonez and Pudge was what it took to turn their fortunes around then the O's would of turned their fortunes around by signing Tejada and Lopez/Hernandez.

What turned them around (what they've done differently than Baltimore) is developing young talent that is producing at the big league level. Making some very good trades (Bonderman) and obtaining some cheap but very productive players (Thames) via free agency. If Baltimore could do the equivalent types of things w/the same level of success they could be 20 games over .500 w/o signing another big name FA. I don't understand how you can possibly disagree with that when Detroit has shown that it can be done.

[Boca Bird]

I need to, you aren't grasping the point. If signing Ordonez and Pudge was what it took to turn their fortunes around then the O's would of turned their fortunes around by signing Tejada and Lopez/Hernandez.

No. You aren't grasping the point. You are not trying to grasp the point. You completely miss the gist of what I'm saying and dwell on some minutae buried in the 5th paragraph. You then introduce something that has nothing to do with what I'm saying (ryan, farnsworth) and then ask me to explain and defend something that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

You don't seem interested in honest communication. Pudge and Ordonez was the start. of the Tigers transformation. You called it BS, its not BS. Its called a commitment. Our start was Tejada, Guerrero and Lee. Unfortunately, we STOPPED at Tejada. A half-hearted commitment. We waited 3 more winters for another significant upgrade. Meanwhile, we haven't developed the young pitching as fast as Detroit partly because we passed on superior talent in the draft for idiotic reasons like whom a player's agent was. I get it, you think thats ok. I don't. You aren't interested in players like Weaver. After all, Olson is doing ok in AA. We're so smart, we're having another losing season.

Detroit's young pitching was aquired mainly via the draft. They were concerned with getting the best players, we were concerned with "signability".

This started because I said Detorit's willingness to overpay was the START of their transformation. You called it BS. Why did I mention this ? What was my point? If the O's are going to be serious players in the year's FA market, and turn this thing around, they'll probably have to overpay a little for Lee or Soriano either as the long overdue compliment for Tejada or as his replacement. Then, when the draft rolls around, they should be grabbing the best player available, period.

If not, we'll be sitting here (again) next year lamenting our 10th straight losing season. Woo-hoo, a decade of futility. At least we don't break up the sanctity of the slot system! Sorry, I'd rather have Jared Weaver. Lol. I'm sure you'll still be here arguing semantics while you completely gloss over the gist of what people are really trying to say.

If you're waiting for me to say the orioles approach is working better than the Tigers, it ain't gonna happen, you'll have a better chance of turning a pickle back into a cucumber.

Dude, seriously, join tireless rebutters anonymous.

[Boca Bird]

[

I don't remember all the details either although I do know it was made clear that he much preferred to play in a city w/a large hispanic population and I don't think he had any reason or was lying about that desire.

Then you should believe Vlad when he said he would've signed with us when his agents countered with 6 yrs 90 million early in the negotations. Plus, he's gonna make 85 million with the halos as opposed to the 78 million he would've made with us. That part always conveniently gets forgetton

[JohnD]

Rosenthal just stated on Fox that Angelos killed a deal that would have sent Tejada to the Astros. The Rangers and Angels are still heavily involved.

[AgentOrange]

Rosenthal just stated on Fox that Angelos killed a deal that would have sent Tejada to the Astros. The Rangers and Angels are still heavily involved.

Well at least we know he is around!

[SteveA]

Rosenthal just stated on Fox that Angelos killed a deal that would have sent Tejada to the Astros. The Rangers and Angels are still heavily involved.

John, did I mis-hear or did Rosenthal say that the deal would have returned 5 major leaguers??????

[JohnD]

Just rewound it on Tivo. He said prime major league pieces.

Also said Angels offering Santana and Aybar. Rangers offering Blalock.

[Flosman]

Well I sure hope they weren't about to make a deal for Lidge, Tavares, Everett, and Ensberg.

This has to be misreporting. The FO would be beyond stupid to trade with houston for five guys off thier 25 man, that they would give up in a pennent race. I think the O's FO said noway and PA is the fall guy for everything. the type of player/players you have to get back for Miggy are not the guys contenders give up during the season. This is why the Santana deal is hard to believe. But the Angels do have pitching depth even with the sore arms so it is possible.

PA has put himself in a no win situation, if they make a deal it better be a great one and he better hope none of the players flops or get hurt. If they don't make a deal then everyone will say he nixed everything. BTW it is hard for me to see a deal with the rangers but maybe something like Miggy and Benson/Pitching prospect/hawkins for Blalock, Botts, Diamond another very good prospect. Miggy is not a rental IF the FO moves him it has to be for something big.

[Flosman]

On top of everthing within a year if the O's still stink and Miggy is still around, posters around here will be talking about how Santana, Weaver Kendrick and Wood was nixed by PA. we already hear about the deals that we could have had for Javy, Roddy, Penn, etc.,etc. Ithink if someone will give us what Miggy SHOULD cost then it is the best way to improve quickly. But not getting what he is worth is the best way to be very bad for another eight years.

[JohnD]

Regarding Houston, they were PRIME players NOT FIVE players.

[caljr]

Since he said that the Angels and Rangers are still heavily involved it sounds to me that Angelos is not saying no to the notion of Tejada being traded, just him being traded for that particular package. Is this how you all see it?

[66-70-83-??]

Regarding Houston, they were PRIME players NOT FIVE players.

Right. And what their definition of "prime" is, is anyone's guess.

Everett, Lane, Ensburg, Ausmus, Tavares could qualify as "prime" in someone's mind.

If Angelos indeed nixed a deal, like Rosenthal stated, then the question is why ? And who was in the deal. Either he thinks he knows better than Flanny/Duq or he does know better ? Either way- we have problems.

John, what happened to your post count ? Did your odometer "roll over" and start over or something ?