Showalter and trades this offseason

[glorydays]

Yep, you can already see Trea leading towards this. Any personnel move he likes will have resulted because he believes BS has complete control and PA's ear, yet any move he doesn't like will be attributed to AM.

And it isn't just limited to trades but free agents, player development, intl signings, etc. He will pull a single sentence out of some backwoods blog that will "prove" that AM didn't want so and so and Buck did. OR Trea will play the "six degrees of seperation" game to show that AM didn't want someone JT and BS wanted.

Of course... now whenever he blames AM we can now just point out that Trea himself said that Buck will get whatever Buck wants because he has PA's ear.

Therefore - AM is irrelevant and Trea can NEVER BLAME HIM FOR ANYTHING.

Remember that Trea - that is what you are insinuating and therefore you need to stick with that in ALL your future arguments.

[BRob51]

If we all stop responding to him, this thread will go away.

[JTrea81]

Are you connecting the dots the same way you did with Tillman and the Orioles' calendar? Have you considered that the dots you see are actually visual hallucinations because you're schizophrenic?

Well look who isn't in the Orioles rotation...

[TonySoprano]

Silly me, I missed the press release that Showalter was named GM.

[JTrea81]

Silly me, I missed the press release that Showalter was named GM.

Why do you think he took the job then?

He could have been a manager for a more competitive ballclub like the Cubs or Marlins.

Showalter will be calling the shots this offseason IMO. He won't be conducting the negotiations obviously but he's going to want certain players and MacPhail will have to do everything he can to get what Showalter wants if he stays past this season...

[TonySoprano]

Why do you think he took the job then?

He could have been a manager for a more competitive ballclub like the Cubs or Marlins.

Showalter will be calling the shots this offseason IMO. He won't be conducting the negotiations obviously but he's going to want certain players and MacPhail will have to do everything he can to get what Showalter wants if he stays past this season...

Keep telling yourself that.

Andy's the one that has to negotiate the deals. You can't always get what you want.

red rum

red rum

red rum

[Sports Guy]

No I don't but Prince Fielder and Adrian Gonzalez are not Adam Eaton.

The whole thing is that he's willing to take a risk even if it has a chance of blowing up.

And that's what we are going to have to do to get to the next level.

This team has to make that leap. We can't continue to be conservative and expect to succeed. All we are doing is guaranteeing that we will not make the playoffs for every conservative offseason that we have.

The O's kicked the tires on Gonzalez supposedly last offseason but I'm sure MacPhail didn't want to pay the price it would have taken to land him because it would have been too much of a risk for him.

I think Buck will want to pay that price if he's available again this offseason regardless of what we might give up may become because he knows we need that type of player and players to win.

There is a difference between a smart risk and a stupid one.

The example you brought up in this thread is a stupid one...Trading 4 or 5 young players for 1 year of Fielder or AGon is a stupid one.

Trading for a project like Pie, was a smart risk.

[Shopay]

Why do you think he took the job then?

He could have been a manager for a more competitive ballclub like the Cubs or Marlins.

Showalter will be calling the shots this offseason IMO. He won't be conducting the negotiations obviously but he's going to want certain players and MacPhail will have to do everything he can to get what Showalter wants if he stays past this season...

Just so we are clear then, will you hold BS accountable for all the O's off season moves -- whether you see them as good or bad? Or will you selectively target AM for blame for the moves you don't like, and BS for the moves you do?

[Shopay]

There is a difference between a smart risk and a stupid one.

The example you brought up in this thread is a stupid one...Trading 4 or 5 young players for 1 year of Fielder or AGon is a stupid one.

Trading for a project like Pie, was a smart risk.

You've made this rather simple point to him a couple of times now, but he doesn't seem to be able (or refuses) to grasp it.

[foxfield]

I find this interesting as it was an excerpt from Camden Chat from a Rangers fan on Showalter's tenure in Texas.

Buck seems to be the type of manager to do exactly what this team needs - to deal young unproven talent (based on his evaluations of them) for proven established veterans that will help this team win now.

The Adrian Gonzalez tidbit is interesting because Buck was proved wrong there, and considering the O's and Padres match up well for a trade and have a recent trade history - the stage could be set for Buck to right a wrong and re-acquire Gonzalez for his current team now that he is an established power threat.

And the O's have several unproven young MLers to deal to get Gonzalez. Arrieta, Tillman, Bell, Pie to name a few, all who would be tantalizing for SD.

Of course Prince Fielder is out there as well, and the Brewers have made ML ready pitching a priority this offseason so they too match up well with the Orioles.

In any regard I think those who are waiting for the young players to blossom in Oriole uniforms are going to be shocked this offseason when they see these players traded for a veteran or two who will help this team win now.

Buck's tenure in Texas and Arizona have shown that he won't stick with young players if he doesn't think they are ready to help the team win, and right now we have too many question marks with the before mentioned players and what we already have in our core group. So IMO Buck will do what is neccessary and have the Orioles trade some of those question marks for surer things so we can win.

:rofl:

So Buck was GM in Texas, before he was GM in Baltimore. That's premium insight Dude...premium!

[JTrea81]

You've made this rather simple point to him a couple of times now, but he doesn't seem to be able (or refuses) to grasp it.

If those 3-4 (not 4-5 BTW as they each only have 1 season left not 2 or 1.5 under team control) players traded for Fielder or Gonzalez ensures that Jones and Wieters are allowed to relax and therefore achieve their offensive potential and allows Markakis to return to his, it will have been well worth the risk of having them walk and not being able to re-sign or extend them.

We need one of them now, not in 2012, otherwise we risk another season of offensive ineptitude.

[Sports Guy]

If those 3-4 (not 4-5 BTW as they each only have 1 season left not 2 or 1.5 under team control) players traded for Fielder or Gonzalez ensures that Jones and Wieters are allowed to relax and therefore achieve their offensive potential and allows Markakis to return to his, it will have been well worth the risk of having them walk and not being able to re-sign or extend them.

We need one of them now, not in 2012, otherwise we risk another season of offensive ineptitude.

So, you are saying right now that if we don't add Fielder or AGon that the young players will continue to struggle and we can not be a good offense...Do I have that right?

[JTrea81]

So, you are saying right now that if we don't add Fielder or AGon that the young players will continue to struggle and we can not be a good offense...Do I have that right?

If not them somebody similar.

And then we need a slightly lesser RH bat like Werth or Beltre.

We need one power RH bat and one power LH bat this offseason to stick in the #3 and #4 spots in the lineup.

Roberts

Markakis

RH bat

LH bat

Jones

Scott

Wieters

Pie/Bell

SS

Otherwise you'll never know what you have in Jones and Wieters because they will be once again tasked with carrying the offense and will likely press and disappoint.

Derek Jeter didn't have to carry the offensive load when he was in his second year, neither did Dustin Pedroia or even Evan Longoria.

They had a supporting cast around them and were allowed to relax and build confidence. The Orioles haven't provided that supporting cast and we saw the result of that, and not with just the young players, but Nick Markakis as well, who has had one of his worst seasons since his rookie year.

[DrungoHazewood]

If those 3-4 (not 4-5 BTW as they each only have 1 season left not 2 or 1.5 under team control) players traded for Fielder or Gonzalez ensures that Jones and Wieters are allowed to relax and therefore achieve their offensive potential and allows Markakis to return to his, it will have been well worth the risk of having them walk and not being able to re-sign or extend them.

We need one of them now, not in 2012, otherwise we risk another season of offensive ineptitude.

You've yet to explain why it's preferable to trade away 15-20 WAR of (conservatively) projected production out of the young players (in other words, about $60-90M) for one year of Prince Fielder, instead of just paying someone $10 or $15M a year for a couple years for similar production without trading anyone.

I never quite got why a really, really expensive .875 OPS protected Matt Wieters that much more than a moderately expensive .875.

[JTrea81]

You've yet to explain why it's preferable to trade away 15-20 WAR of (conservatively) projected production out of the young players (in other words, about $60-90M) for one year of Prince Fielder, instead of just paying someone $10 or $15M a year for a couple years for similar production without trading anyone.

I never quite got why a really, really expensive .875 OPS protected Matt Wieters that much more than a moderately expensive .875.

Because you cannot find the difference making players that you need entirely on the FA market. You won't find similar production of Fielder or Gonzalez at 1B on a 1-2 year deal for anybody. If you want Konerko you will have to likely go for 3-4 years. He's the only player that's close, and being 35 he could drop off the face of the earth next season.

And the younger players that have more control are not available and/or more costly than it would be to acquire Fielder or Gonzalez.

There's a reason they will likely both be available for trade, and it's because they don't have a lot of team control left. If both had say 3 years under team control left, they likely would not be available.

The Orioles have to acquire talent when it is available. The past few offseasons should have shown us that as we passed on Texieira and then Matt Holliday two perfect fits for our franchise. There is no perfect fit anymore. The FAs are either all older and prone to decline or the players available for trade will be costly in terms of prospects.

If the Orioles want to win, they have to suck it up and pay the price both in terms of prospects and $ because they blew their other opportunities when they had them.

And those opportunties will keep shrinking as more and more teams are locking up their top positional players and more and more teams are freeing up payroll so there's more competition for what's left.