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If you don't undestand that Buck likes Izzy at SS...


wildcard

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I think he's obviously anticipating Izturis playing more like he did in 2009 than he is this year. He wouldn't be an awful option if we could get the guy we had in 2009 for a full season.

However, I don't think it's very wise to be counting on a guy with the hopes that he can bounce back to be a good fielding guy with a .625 OPS. I don't think even wildcard would want Izturis back if he felt he was going to play as abysmally as he has this year, and I think its likely that he's closer to his 2010 performance than the 2009 performance in 2011.

I don't know why Izturis should not return to his 2008-09 performance. He is not old. The first 4 months of this were terrible for a whole lot of O's. Projecting off a three year average, he is good bet to rebound.

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I don't know why Izturis should not return to his 2008-09 performance. He is not old. The first 4 months of this were terrible for a whole lot of O's. Projecting off a three year average, he is good bet to rebound.

I don't know why Izturis has been so bad this year offensively, even compared to his usualy poor offense. By the way, his OPS is .504 since Buck got here, so Buck's arrival has done nothing to help Izzy.

One obvious thing is that he swings at way too many bad pitches. His O-Swing% is 37.2%, up from 27.7% last year and his career number of 24.1%. Not only does he swing at those pitches, he hits them (79.8% contact rare on pitches outside the zone). So, someone really needs to work with him on getting better pitches to hit. His P/PA is 3.32, which is really awful and doesn't help from a team perspective, either.

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http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/how_to_calculate_war/

You're also putting something down that you know nothing about.

I'd also like to know what facts you've offered. Everytime someone has offered something to you, you just ignore it. If there is no bias in your posts toward Izzy, then I'd hate to see you with a bias.

Wait a minute. If anyone, not just me, are going to rely on a system to tell how valuable player's performance is, that person should be able to understand and explain how the system arrives at its evaluations. That is just common sense.

Right now I am just supposed to trust someone that I do not know, who might just be promoting something for money, or credibility or any on a dozen other reasons. So far I have no reason to trust many of the numbers that show up on Fangraphs. Especially when from time to time things do not ring true. Like the way they evaluated Markakis defense last year. I just did seem right to me.

Many times I dig into what is going on with these numbers the answer comes up that they are arrived at subjectively. How do you trust that when you don't even know who is developing them?

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The Rockies have two young, blocked shortstops in whom I'm interested.

The obvious is Chris Nelson, who posted an .887 OPS in the PCL as a 23 year old this season and has gone 5 for his first 10 in the big leagues.

I'm still intrigued by Hector Gomez. Unfortunately, he missed almost the entire season with an injury to his hand, but looked excellent in his short time back in August, even starting 9 successful games at AA. His ceiling is lower than that of Nelson, but he could debut in late 2011.

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Silly me for not double-checking the Cots' list of free agent shortstops; they said AGon was a free agent. OK, scratch him off the list.

There are limitations and downsides on each other option I listed, and you've done a good job pointing them out. I'm just saying there's a lot worth exploring. On OCab, it appears he has been supplanted by a rookie SS, Paul Janisch, so I don't think he'll be back with the Reds. Yes he is a bit old but his D is still pretty good and his O is a lot better than Izzy's even though it is nothing to write home about.

I want to stress, again, that there are probably a lot of options not mentioned. I don't know all the good AAA shortstops who may be either blocked or pressing the starter out of a job. There are probably a few of those. With Izzy's offense being so bad, the threshold of finding a SS who can hit better is pretty easy to meet. It's really a matter of who can be a solid fielder, and stats (especially MiL stats) don't tell the whole story there.

I just want to finish this up by saying that I agree Izzy has been a stabilizing force on the defense, and that is very important. I was thinking about this last night, and we need to remember that stats can't measure certain things. For example, when the SS either makes a good play or a bad play, how does that affect the pitcher's confidence? I do think pitcher pitch differently and more condfidently when the defense behind them is good, and that can't be measured.

About a week ago, there was a game where Andino was the SS and there were runners on 1st and 3rd with one out. A possible DP ball came to him, a little towards the hole. Andino fielded it cleanly but his throw was just a tad towards the SS side of 2B and Roberts' timing on the pivot was slightly disrupted. He made a pretty good throw to 1B, but Snyder had to stretch towards the OF side of 1B, instead of direclty in the line with 2B, to catch it, and the runner was safe on a pretty close call, so the runner on 3rd scored. There were no errors on the play, not even a play you could call bad. But I found myself thinking, "if Izturis was the SS, that throw to Roberts would have been just a tad better, and we'd be out of this inning." Those things are hard to measure, too, but they are real.

So, even though I think it's important to look for someone who is an overall upgrade, please don't think that I underrate the importance of having a good defensive SS. It's important. Pretty much every Oriole team that has ever succeeded has had one.

A completely logic and thoughtful response.

I would be much more convinced that the O's should try other marginal options if the team was not winning with Izturis at SS. That in itself speaks volumes. As you mentioned there is so much that goes into the game that is not measured that when something works it is hard for me to want to change. Still if there are better alternative out there the O's should be evaluating them.

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The Rockies have two young, blocked shortstops in whom I'm interested.

The obvious is Chris Nelson, who posted an .887 OPS in the PCL as a 23 year old this season and has gone 5 for his first 10 in the big leagues.

I'm still intrigued by Hector Gomez. Unfortunately, he missed almost the entire season with an injury to his hand, but looked excellent in his short time back in August, even starting 9 successful games at AA. His ceiling is lower than that of Nelson, but he could debut in late 2011.

Thanks, that is good information to have. Like I said, there are probably some others like this on other teams.

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Decline means offense and Defense. We can probably get Miggi at SS but guys that are limited defensively are not where I think the O's are going.

Well, Izzy has declined offensively and defensively this year and his decline put him worse than a replacement player.

Again, where is your consistency in your argument?

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I would be much more convinced that the O's should try other marginal options if the team was not winning with Izturis at SS.
This is where people have a huge problem with your logic. That's terrible logic! Under that same logic, we should bring back Wigginton at 1B next year, and everyone knows that would be an absolute joke of a decision.

We are winning in spite of Izturis. Not in any way because of him. He's an above average defender but he's also the single worst hitter in the game. Get any of the other guys who can be an average or slightly above average defensive SS but who may just only be "below average" with the bat instead of "so bad it makes me wish I had AIDS because that would be less bad" with the bat, and we're a win or two better as a team without having to spend any additional money or give up any real talent. If you actually do spend some money or trade away some talent, you can get a guy who is average or slightly above with the glove and the bat, and then you are looking at 4 or 5 extra wins just by making one move.

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The Rockies have two young, blocked shortstops in whom I'm interested.

The obvious is Chris Nelson, who posted an .887 OPS in the PCL as a 23 year old this season and has gone 5 for his first 10 in the big leagues.

I'm still intrigued by Hector Gomez. Unfortunately, he missed almost the entire season with an injury to his hand, but looked excellent in his short time back in August, even starting 9 successful games at AA. His ceiling is lower than that of Nelson, but he could debut in late 2011.

Yep..These guys make sense..As does Zach Cozart from Cinci.

There are lots of guys out there that make a lot more sense than Izzy does.

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This is where people have a huge problem with your logic. That's terrible logic! Under that same logic, we should bring back Wigginton at 1B next year, and everyone knows that would be an absolute joke of a decision.

We are winning in spite of Izturis. Not in any way because of him. He's an above average defender but he's also the single worst hitter in the game. Get any of the other guys who can be an average or slightly above average defensive SS but who may just only be "below average" with the bat instead of "so bad it makes me wish I had AIDS because that would be less bad" with the bat, and we're a win or two better as a team without having to spend any additional money or give up any real talent. If you actually do spend some money or trade away some talent, you can get a guy who is average or slightly above with the glove and the bat, and then you are looking at 4 or 5 extra wins just by making one move.

Yea, why should we make any move at all? I mean, we are playing 600 ball! Let's just bring back the same exact team and we will be in the playoffs! :rolleyes:

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I don't know why Izturis has been so bad this year offensively, even compared to his usualy poor offense. By the way, his OPS is .504 since Buck got here, so Buck's arrival has done nothing to help Izzy.

One obvious thing is that he swings at way too many bad pitches. His O-Swing% is 37.2%, up from 27.7% last year and his career number of 24.1%. Not only does he swing at those pitches, he hits them (79.8% contact rare on pitches outside the zone). So, someone really needs to work with him on getting better pitches to hit. His P/PA is 3.32, which is really awful and doesn't help from a team perspective, either.

What I have seen, and this is not scientific, is that Buck uses Izturis differently. Buck values things other then hits. He values bunts, SF and he values outs the moves runs. He promotes this as team baseball and encourages players especially Izturis to do those things. None of which help his offensive numbers. Izturis is a good bunter. He also can handle the bat well enough to hit to the right side and move runners. That's just what I have seen.

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Buck values things other then hits. He values bunts, SF and he values outs the moves runs. He promotes this as team baseball and encourages players especially Izturis to do those things.

He encourages Izturis to do those things because he's trying to salvage some positive out of his at bats. Buck is pretty notorious for not sac bunting very much, for not sealing much on the bases. He's very much like Weaver in that regard.

However, with Izturis, you aren't taking the bat out of the hands of a guy who is going to get on base. He's essentially treating him as if he is a pitcher, and he should. Izturis' OPS this year is pretty much right in between what an average pitcher hits like (~360 OPS) and what an average hitter hits like (~750 OPS). In fact, he may be a little bit closer to the pitching side of things, which is just as embarrassing as it should be.

He's not bunting with Izturis because he likes bunting. He's bunting with Izturis because Izturis hits like a pitcher, and you bunt with the pitcher whenever you can advance a runner without ending the inning.

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Well, Izzy has declined offensively and defensively this year and his decline put him worse than a replacement player.

Again, where is your consistency in your argument?

I believe Izturis is currently a major part of a winning situation with the O's. I have said that consistently. So there is your consistency.

Still if there are better option the O's should evaluate the cost.

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I believe Izturis is currently a major part of a winning situation with the O's. I have said that consistently. So there is your consistency.

Still if there are better option the O's should evaluate the cost.

So then you are advocating, right now, for us to bring back Wiggy to start at first, Millwood for the rotation and Hendrickson for the pen, right?

You also want all coaches brought back, as well, right?

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The Rockies have two young, blocked shortstops in whom I'm interested.

The obvious is Chris Nelson, who posted an .887 OPS in the PCL as a 23 year old this season and has gone 5 for his first 10 in the big leagues.

Oh, right, the Chris Nelson whom the Orioles passed on in the 2004 draft, picking Wade Townsend instead. (Townsend 8th overall, Nelson 9th). Townsend didn't even sign. One of PA's notorious interventions, as I recall. (Sigh)

:angryfire: :vader: :cussing:

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