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Jim Callis comments on the O's lack of prospects in the league top 20's


Frobby

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No dude, we as orioles fans suppport our team. We want everyone in the system to be a great ML ball player, but that shouldn't get in the way of our evaluations of the certain ball player. Mahoney for me is a player who I don't expect much from. I hope I am wrong, because I am once again an O's fan, but looking at the objective facts, I don't think I am on this point.

Now I approach that a whole different way. I like what Mahoney did last year. I expect him to do well again this year. Hopefully he will. If he doesn't I will be disappointed.

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Stotle, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I honestly believe that.

People are entitled to be negative about a player if they want. But that does mean I have to agree with them. That is the case with Callis.

People are entitled to objective opinions that they feel may show a need to say that a player like Mahoney will never to a regular major league. But to express that objective opinion and then say but I support him seems like opposites. If you support him, don't state the negative. Or if you objectively feel the need to state he will never be good then don't say you support him. There is a direct conflict there.

Callis comment was something like saying Stotle you are a smart guy. You have done some great things. But you will never amount to anything.

Now which comment did you hear out of those three sentences. Most people would hear the last one. It has impact. That is the impression Callis' comments left with me.

Mahoney has an unknown future. He will probably be placed on the 40 man roster this off season. With a good ST and a good start to the season he could be in the majors sometime next year. That is what I think about Mahoney.

No. Callis's comment is akin to someone saying to someone else (Callis isn't talking directly to Mahoney), "Stotle really came along nicely this year with his performance and really held his own. However, history tells us that the road gets much harder and the growth has to come at a much faster rate for him to continue to keep up with a lot of his peers on the same track. He should be happy with what he's accomplished, but if I have to project forward my best guess -- based on a couple decades of doing this and speaking with people who do this as a living -- is that he isn't likely to be one of those big contributors at the highest level.

The fact that you look down on Callis for taking a professional approach to his job, not kissing up to local media about their players, and just giving his best guess at what scouts will say when BA speaks with them this fall, is inexcusable. Say you disagree with him -- fine. But you've lost respect for him? Please.

There are a huge number of college players that hit over .375 at some level and are told they have very little chance of getting drafted. There are lower-level minor leaguers getting people out with average or worse pitching "stuff" who are labeled as bullpen arms at best. There are college players with questionable bat speed or holes in their swing that thrive off of the fringy pitches you find in the lower-levels and are stymied once they run into consistent competition that can place quality offerings.

My issue is that you throw around phrases like "lose respect" towards someone who is doing his job, and someone who does it in a much more professional an respectful way than many people in his industry. It isn't Callis's job to cheer on anyone -- his job is solely to speak with professional evaluators and coaches and do his best to report on the prospect status of those players in the minor leagues.

Your attitude is ten times more disrespectful than anything Callis said. You can paint it as "everyone is entitled to their opinion", but what you have been spewing throughout this embarrassing excuse for a discussion is that "Callis is disrespectful and unprofessional for not pissing rainbows all over our minor leaguers and no one on this board is really supporting their team or its prospects if they give credence to analysis provided buy impartial third parties."

I like you as a poster -- you seem like a nice person -- but between this and the Fangraphs convo it seems like you honestly could not care less what anyone else has to say in a convo. When you consider people are choosing to spend some of their free time talking sports, I find it highly disrespectful to be so dishonest when you engage in these types of dig-in-on-my-opinion trainwrecks. I can't imagine there are more than a scattered few that might even partially agree with what you are saying, yet you insist it's everyone else that is in the wrong. Fine, but you are at JTrea level here.

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No. Callis's comment is akin to someone saying to someone else (Callis isn't talking directly to Mahoney), "Stotle really came along nicely this year with his performance and really held his own. However, history tells us that the road gets much harder and the growth has to come at a much faster rate for him to continue to keep up with a lot of his peers on the same track. He should be happy with what he's accomplished, but if I have to project forward my best guess -- based on a couple decades of doing this and speaking with people who do this as a living -- is that he isn't likely to be one of those big contributors at the highest level.

The fact that you look down on Callis for taking a professional approach to his job, not kissing up to local media about their players, and just giving his best guess at what scouts will say when BA speaks with them this fall, is inexcusable. Say you disagree with him -- fine. But you've lost respect for him? Please.

There are a huge number of college players that hit over .375 at some level and are told they have very little chance of getting drafted. There are lower-level minor leaguers getting people out with average or worse pitching "stuff" who are labeled as bullpen arms at best. There are college players with questionable bat speed or holes in their swing that thrive off of the fringy pitches you find in the lower-levels and are stymied once they run into consistent competition that can place quality offerings.

My issue is that you throw around phrases like "lose respect" towards someone who is doing his job, and someone who does it in a much more professional an respectful way than many people in his industry. It isn't Callis's job to cheer on anyone -- his job is solely to speak with professional evaluators and coaches and do his best to report on the prospect status of those players in the minor leagues.

Your attitude is ten times more disrespectful than anything Callis said. You can paint it as "everyone is entitled to their opinion", but what you have been spewing throughout this embarrassing excuse for a discussion is that "Callis is disrespectful and unprofessional for not pissing rainbows all over our minor leaguers and no one on this board is really supporting their team or its prospects if they give credence to analysis provided buy impartial third parties."

I like you as a poster -- you seem like a nice person -- but between this and the Fangraphs convo it seems like you honestly could not care less what anyone else has to say in a convo. When you consider people are choosing to spend some of their free time talking sports, I find it highly disrespectful to be so dishonest when you engage in these types of dig-in-on-my-opinion trainwrecks. I can't imagine there are more than a scattered few that might even partially agree with what you are saying, yet you insist it's everyone else that is in the wrong. Fine, but you are at JTrea level here.

Well said!!!!

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Stotle, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I honestly believe that.

People are entitled to be negative about a player if they want. But that does mean I have to agree with them. That is the case with Callis.

People are entitled to objective opinions that they feel may show a need to say that a player like Mahoney will never to a regular major league. But to express that objective opinion and then say but I support him seems like opposites. If you support him, don't state the negative. Or if you objectively feel the need to state he will never be good then don't say you support him. There is a direct conflict there.

Callis comment was something like saying Stotle you are a smart guy. You have done some great things. But you will never amount to anything.

Now which comment did you hear out of those three sentences. Most people would hear the last one. It has impact. That is the impression Callis' comments left with me.

Mahoney has an unknown future. He will probably be placed on the 40 man roster this off season. With a good ST and a good start to the season he could be in the majors sometime next year. That is what I think about Mahoney.

Why is "top prospect" so important to you? Bergesen and Berken weren't top prospects but look at what they are doing for the Orioles.

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Now I approach that a whole different way. I like what Mahoney did last year. I expect him to do well again this year. Hopefully he will. If he doesn't I will be disappointed.

I think this is the issue man. Just because someone has a good year doesn't mean you should expect it again in the future, especially if his track record suggests otherwise. Then, when you factor in age, projection, tools, skills along with track record, I don't possibly see how you can expect him to do it again. Do you expect Michael Aubrey to hit 22 HRs again next year because he did it this year? Expecting and hoping for are 2 different things(and I know Aubrey is a MiL FA)....

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No. Callis's comment is akin to someone saying to someone else (Callis isn't talking directly to Mahoney), "Stotle really came along nicely this year with his performance and really held his own. However, history tells us that the road gets much harder and the growth has to come at a much faster rate for him to continue to keep up with a lot of his peers on the same track. He should be happy with what he's accomplished, but if I have to project forward my best guess -- based on a couple decades of doing this and speaking with people who do this as a living -- is that he isn't likely to be one of those big contributors at the highest level.

The fact that you look down on Callis for taking a professional approach to his job, not kissing up to local media about their players, and just giving his best guess at what scouts will say when BA speaks with them this fall, is inexcusable. Say you disagree with him -- fine. But you've lost respect for him? Please.

There are a huge number of college players that hit over .375 at some level and are told they have very little chance of getting drafted. There are lower-level minor leaguers getting people out with average or worse pitching "stuff" who are labeled as bullpen arms at best. There are college players with questionable bat speed or holes in their swing that thrive off of the fringy pitches you find in the lower-levels and are stymied once they run into consistent competition that can place quality offerings.

My issue is that you throw around phrases like "lose respect" towards someone who is doing his job, and someone who does it in a much more professional an respectful way than many people in his industry. It isn't Callis's job to cheer on anyone -- his job is solely to speak with professional evaluators and coaches and do his best to report on the prospect status of those players in the minor leagues.

Your attitude is ten times more disrespectful than anything Callis said. You can paint it as "everyone is entitled to their opinion", but what you have been spewing throughout this embarrassing excuse for a discussion is that "Callis is disrespectful and unprofessional for not pissing rainbows all over our minor leaguers and no one on this board is really supporting their team or its prospects if they give credence to analysis provided buy impartial third parties."

I like you as a poster -- you seem like a nice person -- but between this and the Fangraphs convo it seems like you honestly could not care less what anyone else has to say in a convo. When you consider people are choosing to spend some of their free time talking sports, I find it highly disrespectful to be so dishonest when you engage in these types of dig-in-on-my-opinion trainwrecks. I can't imagine there are more than a scattered few that might even partially agree with what you are saying, yet you insist it's everyone else that is in the wrong. Fine, but you are at JTrea level here.

You of all people should know better. This is from the Fangraph thread:

From Wildcard:

"Thank you Stotle, e16bball, capanson and Flosman. Your post are very helpful in understanding in the meaning of the Fangraph player value.

Your insight that the value does not represent a value in the real world because of other factors that influence what the real world will pay is very helpful. With that thought in mind, I may have been thinking that people use the Fangraph value as a real world value. That may not be true. I will have to keep in mind what you have just said when reading how people use the Fangraphs player value in the future."

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You're not exactly going out on a limb here. Almost any player who is at AAA next year, has a good spring, and a good start to the season COULD be in the majors sometime next year. Doesn't sound like you're in Mahoney's corner more than anyone else. Heck, Jim Callis wouldn't even disagree with your statement. He never said he had no chance to be a ML regular either.

If Callis would have agreed with it, then it would have be nice if he would have said that. He could have but didn't.

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I think this is the issue man. Just because someone has a good year doesn't mean you should expect it again in the future, especially if his track record suggests otherwise. Then, when you factor in age, projection, tools, skills along with track record, I don't possibly see how you can expect him to do it again. Do you expect Michael Aubrey to hit 22 HRs again next year because he did it this year? Expecting and hoping for are 2 different things(and I know Aubrey is a MiL FA)....

Doesn't really matter what Aubrey does next year. He is past prospect status. What Guzman did is probably not going help him get to the majors either.

Mahoney will be 24 next year. If he does well and the O's get him to AAA he will still be a prospect.

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He wasn't asked that question. He's not writing War and Peace. He was asked about Mahoney's season and said it was a good season but he's not a big time prospect. That's pretty simple. 99.9% of the posters on here get it. One doesn't. Guess who?

Saying he's not a big time prospect doesn't mean that he will never be a ML player or even a ML regular. Callis never said anything like that despite what voices might be telling you inside your head. You've made a mountain out of a molehill but you just don't get that.

I never said that Callis said that Mahoney would not be a major player or regular. Frobby was the one that said that Mahoney would not be a major league starter in post #92.

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Maybe this will help you remember. You stated your whole case as Jim Callis somehow dissing Mahoney and saying he won't amount to anything. He never said that. Now it seems you agree that he didn't say that. That's a good thing.

Actually no. If you read through all my post in this thread you know that this is not true. I know exact what I said. I have never said that Callis said Mahoney would not make the majors or be a regular player. If I had said that you would have found it, but you didn't.

The post with Stotle is a comment trying to get Stotle to understand my impression that Callis statement left. It is overstated to try to get Stotle to understand. I made probably 20 posts in this thread and they all come back to one line of thinking.

I believe and have stated that Callis statement with far from complimentary to Mahoney inspite of him saying that Mahoney had a nice year. He leaves the impression that Mahoney achievement as player of the year for the O's has little merit. Says he will never hit 25 homers in the Majors. He implies that Callis thinks that Mahoney will never hit .300 with plus power. These are all things that we expect a major league 1B will do over the course of his career and Callis is either saying or implying that Mahoney will not become good enough to do them.

Mahoney is a 23 year old kid who is an unknown. If he has a good spring and a good start to the year he may make the majors next year. I believe that from where Mahoney is in his career at the age he is it is certainly possible that he could achieve all the things that Callis said he would not. That is why I object to Callis statement.

As has been pointed out Callis gets paid to make such judgements. And has I pointed out when he makes one I think could be wrong I do not have to agree with it.

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