Tillman/Britton or vet innings eater

[Owen21]

Solidify the bullpen, and give the ball to the kids. No veteran required here. The starting pitching improved when the back end of the pen improved. They went after the hitters with more confidence once they knew the pen had their back.

[Hank Scorpio]

It's getting to the point where I can basically click on the first page of a thread, not read the rest of it, and know exactly what has transpired in it.

Poll: Do you like Orange or Black better?

Options:

1. Orange

2. Black

Last page of the thread:

"Tillman needs to be pitching in another city next year, Buck, Andy, rabble, rabble, rabble. Oh, and I prefer Orange b/c Black's value is inflated b/c of it's flyball tendencies."

Anywhooooooooooooo... I picked youth b/c I think Britton is probably ready to make an impact at the big league level based on his improving command over the past couple years. I think Britton's gonna be special.

[waroriole]

Anywhooooooooooooo... I picked youth b/c I think Britton is probably ready to make an impact at the big league level based on his improving command over the past couple years. I think Britton's gonna be special.

Even though I voted to add another SP, I agree that Britton is going to be very good. I just don't want to rush him up here. He was acceptable for AAA last year, but nothing spectacular. I'd like to see him dominate AAA and then come up when he is ready. If we go with Tillman as the #5 guy, it's going to have to be Britton coming up when somebody is injured or ineffective. I want his performance to dictate when he comes up and not the needs of the ML club.

[Moose Milligan]

Frobby dishing negative rep is like Mother Teresa backhanding an orphan.

[sangar]

Adding a veteran starter is the logical thing to do. Even if Britton proves he is ready in the spring and continues pounding AAA he is staying down until his super 2 is satisfied. That means we're counting on Tillman to be solid as the #5 and zero staff injuries. What if Tillman continues with his big league jitters or one of the others pulls or twists something? At this point Berken or Hernandez can't be counted on as swingmen. We're back to searching the leftover bin for the next Eaton? No thanks. Without adding that veteran innings eater we're one small misfortune away from another horrible April.

[QBsILLEST1]

Adding a veteran starter is the logical thing to do. Even if Britton proves he is ready in the spring and continues pounding AAA he is staying down until his super 2 is satisfied. That means we're counting on Tillman to be solid as the #5 and zero staff injuries. What if Tillman continues with his big league jitters or one of the others pulls or twists something? At this point Berken or Hernandez can't be counted on as swingmen. We're back to searching the leftover bin for the next Eaton? No thanks. Without adding that veteran innings eater we're one small misfortune away from another horrible April.

Why can Hernandez not be counted on as a swing man? And then Vandenhurk is another option. The reason we have depth is so we do not have to go out and get one of these innings eater vets. We have Berken, Hernandez, Vandenhurk as possible swingmen if need be, and thats only if Tillman for whatever reason proves he is unable to hold down the 5th starter spot, which he should be able to with no problems. And then, Britton will be ready. The ONLY vet FA arm we should acquire is a young TOR arm like a Greinke. I wouldn't mind taking a shot at Brandon Webb, though it sounds like he may be done(topping out at 82 in instructionals)....

[sangar]

For obvious reasons Berken can't be counted on to start.

Hernandez had a high ERA after his return from the ankle injury and has always had trouble his second time through the rotation.

I'll admit I forgot about Vandenhurk but I don't see where he has shown he is ready to accept a ML starting role.

I'd much rather have the kids fighting for a spot than forced into one. In most of the scenarios presented in favor of going with the kids they are counting on everything going right. Last year we had an overabundance of OF's going into the season and look what happened. The best scenario is not hte most likely one and we have marginal depth at this point.

[Frobby]

People keep saying you can't have too much pitching. Ok, that may be true on some levels. But its not always true.

There was a suggestion to sign 2 vets and send down Arrieta? I mean, seriously? What does that accomplish?

What more do guys like Tillman and Arrieta have to prove in AAA?

At what point do you get a big time extended look at Tillman?

I see no reason to bring in some vet starter to eat innings. Unless we have a bunch of injuries, we should have 3 190+ IP guys and Arrieta could go 170+ IP.

Now, we know injuries will occur. But to sign a vet because of that, and thus send down Tillman, makes zero sense to me.

As I said before, go out and sign a few guys like David Pauley for AAA...Guys that can step in for 4-8 starts if needs be. You also have DH, Berken, VDH and of course, Britton.

I think there is enough depth for us to get by.

Plus, I would guess there would be some underachieving starter that could be had in a salary dump during the season if needs be.

Anyone who thinks Arrieta needs more time in the minors is being silly.

As to Tillman, he hasn't proven he's 100% ready. He may be ready by spring, though. I'm just a little reluctant to hand it to him. Remember, he came to spring training last year and really laid an egg there when everyone was presuming he'd be in the rotation all year. Hopefully that doesn't happen again, but you can't assume it.

As to Britton, he needs 2-3 months more of AAA in my opinion. If you look at his game logs from last year, you'll see that he wasn't pitching 6+ innings on a consistent basis in AAA, which I think you really need to see before a guy is ready for promotion. Also, from what BA said about him on its top 20 lists (per Stotle's paraphrasing), it just sounds like he needs some more polish before he is ready:

For Britton at AA, heavy fastball (sinker) among best in minors. 90-94. Evaluators split on whether slider or change-up is better secondary. CH has some drop, slider will flash a little depth. Ability to turn those into legit ML pitches will determine if he can reach his ceiling (maybe a #2). Needs to improve control and handling the running game. Doesn't have firmest handle on commanding his fastball -- pitch gets away from him and dives well out of zone.

For Britton at AAA, basically the same write-up, though this staffer separates the FB/SI and says SL is best secondary. Also mentions Britton loses his release point in his delivery, causing both control and command to suffer.

So, as much as we all want to see Britton, my assumption is that he needs another 10-15 starts in AAA at least before he's ready for the bigs.

[Sports Guy]

Anyone who thinks Arrieta needs more time in the minors is being silly.

As to Tillman, he hasn't proven he's 100% ready. He may be ready by spring, though. I'm just a little reluctant to hand it to him. Remember, he came to spring training last year and really laid an egg there when everyone was presuming he'd be in the rotation all year. Hopefully that doesn't happen again, but you can't assume it.

As to Britton, he needs 2-3 months more of AAA in my opinion. If you look at his game logs from last year, you'll see that he wasn't pitching 6+ innings on a consistent basis in AAA, which I think you really need to see before a guy is ready for promotion. Also, from what BA said about him on its top 20 lists (per Stotle's paraphrasing), it just sounds like he needs some more polish before he is ready:

So, as much as we all want to see Britton, my assumption is that he needs another 10-15 starts in AAA at least before he's ready for the bigs.

I agree Britton needs to go back to AAA but he still represents some depth and could be ready by mid May.

[Stan P]

Britton.

Hopefully Tillman is dealt in a package for a 1B, 3B, or SS. I don't have any interest in a vet innings eater because I think Britton is ready and will be a good pitcher even as a rookie.

[QBsILLEST1]

Anyone who thinks Arrieta needs more time in the minors is being silly.

As to Tillman, he hasn't proven he's 100% ready. He may be ready by spring, though. I'm just a little reluctant to hand it to him. Remember, he came to spring training last year and really laid an egg there when everyone was presuming he'd be in the rotation all year. Hopefully that doesn't happen again, but you can't assume it.

As to Britton, he needs 2-3 months more of AAA in my opinion. If you look at his game logs from last year, you'll see that he wasn't pitching 6+ innings on a consistent basis in AAA, which I think you really need to see before a guy is ready for promotion. Also, from what BA said about him on its top 20 lists (per Stotle's paraphrasing), it just sounds like he needs some more polish before he is ready:

So, as much as we all want to see Britton, my assumption is that he needs another 10-15 starts in AAA at least before he's ready for the bigs.

I disagree, most pitchers aren't fully baked when they come up, they all have something to work on. 10-15 starts isn't going to make his command improve a great deal nor will it make his ability to control the running game go from below average to above average. Now, I do think he needs some AAA time, just not half a seasons worth. And when he comes up, those same issues mentioned above will still be things he will need to continue to work on at the ML level....The good thing about Britton is that he misses down when he misses which is good, rather than a guy like Tillman who's command issues take form in him missing up, over the plate rather than down and over the plate. This is why he will be able to be a bit more successful right off bat inspite of the fact that his command won't be all the way developed, it gives him slight room for error....Hitting the ball hard on the ground results in more outs than hitting the ball hard in the air....

[Frobby]

I disagree, most pitchers aren't fully baked when they come up, they all have something to work on. 10-15 starts isn't going to make his command improve a great deal nor will it make his ability to control the running game go from below average to above average. Now, I do think he needs some AAA time, just not half a seasons worth. And when he comes up, those same issues mentioned above will still be things he will need to continue to work on at the ML level....The good thing about Britton is that he misses down when he misses which is good, rather than a guy like Tillman who's command issues take form in him missing up, over the plate rather than down and over the plate. This is why he will be able to be a bit more successful right off bat inspite of the fact that his command won't be all the way developed, it gives him slight room for error....Hitting the ball hard on the ground results in more outs than hitting the ball hard in the air....

I agree that many, perhaps most pitchers are not fully baked when they come up. I do think Briitton still would benefit by staying in the minors a bit longer to work on these things and work on getting deeper into games.

Just to give a feel for this, Arrieta made 28 AAA starts in 2009-10 before getting his call-up. In his final 9 AAA starts, he averaged 6.55 IP per start. Tillman in 2009 had 18 AAA starts before his call-up. Britton has only 12 AAA starts and he averaged just a tad over 5.5 IP per start.

So, I don't necessarily need to debate with you whether he needs a half-season of starts, or something less. I do want to see him going 6-7 innings on a consistent basis at that level, because I don't want tons of 5-inning outings at the major league level.

[OsEatAlEast]

I think Tillman is going to step up to the challenge next year! With all the competition from the other guys, especially Britton. I think something is going to click, I just have a feeling about him. If he starts using that two seamer to attack the strike zone more often I think he will have a heck of a season.

[QBsILLEST1]

I think Tillman is going to step up to the challenge next year! With all the competition from the other guys, especially Britton. I think something is going to click, I just have a feeling about him. If he starts using that two seamer to attack the strike zone more often I think he will have a heck of a season.

I think things had already started to click and he showed signs of figuring things out last year. He has a 4 pitch arsenal, his command had improved from what I saw the previous year. He looks like a guy who is on the verge of figuring things out IMO.

[Scrat1]

Tillman has nothing left to prove in the minors. Quick jerking him around and let him show if he can stick or not. I'm not worried about him getting too comfortable, because he knows if he stumbles, Britton is going to take his spot.

It's true that we may be a little thin if we don't bring in a starter. But I'd rather that be the case than leaving Tillman in the minors. With Britton in AAA and Hernandez and Vandenhurk capable of providing spot starts, I'm comfortable going into 2011 without adding a starter. If things really get ugly we can always make a move midseason.