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Tillman vs Bergesen


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Who would you rather trade?  

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  1. 1. Who would you rather trade?



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The team is still in a rebuilding mindset, and players like Tillman are the ones they ought to be looking for.

No, they are in a win now mindset and Bergesen is ready to help them do that. Tillman isn't so you trade him for somebody that can help us win now.

The rebuilding is over with.

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This would be a bad time to have to make that choice. When Tillman returned from Norfolk last month, he was a much improved pitcher, to such an extent that I would hate to bail on him just when he is simultaneously undervalued and looking as if he is ready to turn a corner.

IMO, Tillman is not far off from being a consistently successful MLB starter. His two-seamer is still evolving, but it shows a lot of potential, and if it comes around, I think we will see a much different pitcher snap into focus. I don't know whether that will ever happen, but IMO he is on the cusp of turning into the pitcher we have hoped he would be, and to bail on him now would be foolish.

An analysis of their mental makeup is so presumptuous and so far beyond your knowledge that it borders on being offensive. Critique their pitching, to the extent that you can; but you really should refrain from areas where you lack both expertise and basis for judgment.

You might note that Bergesen is two and a half years older than Tillman, and has 174 more innings in MLB--the equivalent of a full MLB season. A reasonable person might consider the possibility that the edge in age and experience could account for whatever difference in "polish" or maturity may exist between them.

As to what is between their ears... You are way out of your depth.

All I know that Bergesen did what the Orioles told him to do. Tillman did it for awhile, but then reverted back to his old style of pitching to rack up wins in AAA. Then when he came up to the majors, he got shelled once again because he wouldn't pitch like the Orioles wanted him to. Finally in the last game they told him to ditch his curveball, he did it, and he did well. But overall Tillman doesn't seem to take to adjusting well.

Tillman reminds me a lot of Hayden Penn in that aspect. Penn never could adjust to major league hitters.

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All I know that Bergesen did what the Orioles told him to do. Tillman did it for awhile, but then reverted back to his old style of pitching to rack up wins in AAA. Then when he came up to the majors, he got shelled once again because he wouldn't pitch like the Orioles wanted him to. Finally in the last game they told him to ditch his curveball, he did it, and he did well. But overall Tillman doesn't seem to take to adjusting well.

Tillman reminds me a lot of Hayden Penn in that aspect. Penn never could adjust to major league hitters.

Yea, that how come he went from having a "show me" change in 2008 to a pretty decent change in 2009 and went from having no cutter to a usable cutter in 2010. He was also using his two seamer more in 2010.

I love how Bergy goes about his business but I think his talent level is significantly lower then Tillman's. When you are a ground ball pitcher and your 2 seamer is rated the worst pitch in baseball its not a good sign. I am worried that Bergy's heavier use of his 4 seam fastball is going to hurt him next season as teams adapt.

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No, they are in a win now mindset and Bergesen is ready to help them do that. Tillman isn't so you trade him for somebody that can help us win now.

The rebuilding is over with.

The rebuilding is over? Really? What have we built? A last-place cub?

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Question before I vote: is Bergey a 3 or a 5 (seen him called both in this very thread)? Or maybe he's a 4? Compared to the other AL East rotations, assuming he gives us around 200 innings of a 4.50 or so ERA, how does he stack up?

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Very few people reach the type of career that Curt Schilling did. I hope we keep Tillman around until he works hard enough to see what type of career he might aspire to.

Trading Brad doesn't scare me the same way that that trading Chris does.

This has been a good discussion thus far and I think everyone is making good points for either side of the debate.

But I think the best point made in this whole thread is right here.

BB is what he is. He has good value but how long will he be able to stay good? How long will he be able to get by, on what will likely be poor K rates? Will he be able to be a 4.50ish ERA, 200ish IP pitcher for the next 3-5 years? IMO, that is pretty much his consistent ceiling(ie, he may be a little better or a little worse season to season but that's about what you can expect from him consistenly..at best). We heard some of his comps last year and a lot of them fizzled out after 3-5 years because of their style of pitching.

Tillman has much more potential than that...He is also younger.

Now, is BB more likely to be a contributing member of this team in the next year or 2? I would probably say yes to that but not by much and I give Tillman the long term edge.

For me, I trade BB first. I get that his style is good for our park but that only means so much..He still gave up a lot of homers this year and if he is getting his stuff up in the zone at all, as he was for a lot of this season, he is going to get crushed.

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Talent wise, Tillman is definitely superior to Bergesen, so on that alone I'd rather trade Brad. Don't get me wrong, I like Brad, and when he is on he is a joy to watch due to the pace at which he pitches, and the way he can actually field his position. However, Bergesen is a location pitcher, and as such if that location is off, ever so much, he will get hit.

This isn't to say that Tillman isn't an enigma in his own right, because he is, and he is just as capable of getting hit hard as Bergesen. Tillman needs to develop better secondary pitches, but the overall package of what he could be, or better yet, even him at is mid point, is still better than what Bergesen can be at his best.

Maybe Tillman never develops into an ace. Maybe he never develops into anything other than a back of the rotation starter. Maybe, in the worst case scenario, he never even becomes that. Even still, I'm still inclined to see what he can be, and thus would be more likely to trade Bergesen.

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All I know that Bergesen did what the Orioles told him to do. Tillman did it for awhile, but then reverted back to his old style of pitching to rack up wins in AAA. Then when he came up to the majors, he got shelled once again because he wouldn't pitch like the Orioles wanted him to. Finally in the last game they told him to ditch his curveball, he did it, and he did well. But overall Tillman doesn't seem to take to adjusting well.

Tillman reminds me a lot of Hayden Penn in that aspect. Penn never could adjust to major league hitters.

This post has so many logical fallacies - pop psychology, searching for patterns when there are none, 'post hoc ergo propter hoc,' attributing complicated results to 1 simple cause, etc etc etc - in such a small space that it's frankly mind-boggling.

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Curt Schilling

weams, the problem with the Curt Schilling deal was not that we gave him up... it's that we gave him AND Finley up for a 1-hit-wonder who completely flopped.

Would you have been disappointed if we had traded Curt Schilling straight up for a future Hall of Famer?

I know Tillman has the potential to be talented one day but our depth at young talented SP gives us the option to acquire young talented players at other more necessary positions.

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weams, the problem with the Curt Schilling deal was not that we gave him up... it's that we gave him AND Finley up for a 1-hit-wonder who completely flopped.

Would you have been disappointed if we had traded Curt Schilling straight up for a future Hall of Famer?

I know Tillman has the potential to be talented one day but our depth at young talented SP gives us the option to acquire young talented players at other more necessary positions.

Don't forget Pete Harnish. He may not have had the long term success the other two had but he provided much more value for Houston and, I believe, Cincinatti than Davis gave us.
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This post has so many logical fallacies - pop psychology, searching for patterns when there are none, 'post hoc ergo propter hoc,' attributing complicated results to 1 simple cause, etc etc etc - in such a small space that it's frankly mind-boggling.
Not to defend Trea but your post is out there too.
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