Jen Royle gets it

[TinCup]

Anybody who has read my posts on here over the years has seen me post words to the effect that I will eat the tie I wear the day the O's successfully outbid the bigger dogs for a top flight free agent. I say this because I just do not, and have not seen this as much of a likely outcome/event. We settle for the 3rd/4th tier FA's, the low hanging fruit that is near spoilage, the easier pickings that nobody else seems to competitive over.

[TonySoprano]

His point on results is just him ducking and dodging and getting away from the fact that he really has no idea what "wining and dining" and "recruiting" and "sales pitches" are being made. He talks like he knows everything, so I just want specific examples. Did they take Teixeira to McDonald's instead of Ruth's Chris?

Let's face it, MacPhail could be the one of the better salesman for all we know, but he's still in a thirteen year-old lot full of AMC Gremlins, when in the neighborhood, people are selling Cadillacs (NY), and Lincolns (BOS), and even Mustangs (TB). You're still dodging the point about results, no matter how one views MacPhail's "wining and dining" skills.

[Moose Milligan]

Let's face it, MacPhail could be the one of the better salesman for all we know, but he's still in a thirteen year-old lot full of AMC Gremlins, when in the neighborhood, people are selling Cadillacs (NY), and Lincolns (BOS), and even Mustangs (TB). You're still dodging the point about results, no matter how one views MacPhail's "wining and dining" skills.

How can you possibly dodge results like this one?

And this one?

[Sports Guy]

Over the years on this site, you would be hard pressed to find a bigger Beltre supporter than i am.

When he appeared to be easily available years ago, i wanted to get him, while many didn't..The next year, he hit 48 homers in LA.

I have always been a big fan of his and love the talent and upside of him.

He has been hindered by great pitchers parks IMO and that has to be taken into account when you look at his previous numbers.

That being said, he has a career OBP of 328. He has a career BA of 275 which is helped out by his BA this past year, where he saw a very lucky BABIP, for him.

Despite playing in pitchers parks, Beltre has almost always had a HR/FB rate over 10%, so he was still getting balls out of the yard.

His walk rates are poor.

In the last 12 years, he has averaged a WAR of 4.2.

The guy is very talented but the odd thing is, here you have someone like Jtrea, a guy saying we need a MOO bat, saying that Beltre is a must get.

Beltre is not a MOO bat...He is a #6 type hitter. His OBP isn't going to be great..He has had 4 seasons with an OPS of 800 or more..his career OPS is 791 and that is greatly enhanced by 2 monster years.

I don't see how you can say he is a must get, especially if you are talking about the importance of a MOO bat.

Beltre's value is much moreso tied up in his glove than his bat.

Now, I am fine with pursuing him and I would really like to add him to this team. But I don't see the urgency to give him a stupid contract. He isn't that good.

[Hank Scorpio]

Over the years on this site, you would be hard pressed to find a bigger Beltre supporter than i am.

When he appeared to be easily available years ago, i wanted to get him, while many didn't..The next year, he hit 48 homers in LA.

I have always been a big fan of his and love the talent and upside of him.

He has been hindered by great pitchers parks IMO and that has to be taken into account when you look at his previous numbers.

That being said, he has a career OBP of 328. He has a career BA of 275 which is helped out by his BA this past year, where he saw a very lucky BABIP, for him.

Despite playing in pitchers parks, Beltre has almost always had a HR/FB rate over 10%, so he was still getting balls out of the yard.

His walk rates are poor.

In the last 12 years, he has averaged a WAR of 4.2.

The guy is very talented but the odd thing is, here you have someone like Jtrea, a guy saying we need a MOO bat, saying that Beltre is a must get.

Beltre is not a MOO bat...He is a #6 type hitter. His OBP isn't going to be great..He has had 4 seasons with an OPS of 800 or more..his career OPS is 791 and that is greatly enhanced by 2 monster years.

I don't see how you can say he is a must get, especially if you are talking about the importance of a MOO bat.

Beltre's value is much moreso tied up in his glove than his bat.

Now, I am fine with pursuing him and I would really like to add him to this team. But I don't see the urgency to give him a stupid contract. He isn't that good.

Defensively he is.

But yeah, he's not any kind of offensive solution... and teams don't historically pour out money for defense.

[Sports Guy]

Defensively he is.

But yeah, he's not any kind of offensive solution... and teams don't historically pour out money for defense.

Beltre is going to get paid based off of his MVP caliber season last year.

Had he been a good defensive third baseman with his normal 780ish OPS, he would be looking at some kind of 3/35-40 type deal I bet.

But, he had a monster year and its a thin FA market, so teams are going to offer him crazy money.

[Hank Scorpio]

Beltre is going to get paid based off of his MVP caliber season last year.

Had he been a good defensive third baseman with his normal 780ish OPS, he would be looking at some kind of 3/35-40 type deal I bet.

But, he had a monster year and its a thin FA market, so teams are going to offer him crazy money.

You're probably right, but I think most teams are intelligent enough to recognize the stadium in which he had the bulk of his at bats. Most reasonably intelligent people know that Beltre isn't some offensive force. The bulk of his value to most teams is with the glove.

[Shopay]

Over the years on this site, you would be hard pressed to find a bigger Beltre supporter than i am.

When he appeared to be easily available years ago, i wanted to get him, while many didn't..The next year, he hit 48 homers in LA.

I have always been a big fan of his and love the talent and upside of him.

He has been hindered by great pitchers parks IMO and that has to be taken into account when you look at his previous numbers.

That being said, he has a career OBP of 328. He has a career BA of 275 which is helped out by his BA this past year, where he saw a very lucky BABIP, for him.

Despite playing in pitchers parks, Beltre has almost always had a HR/FB rate over 10%, so he was still getting balls out of the yard.

His walk rates are poor.

In the last 12 years, he has averaged a WAR of 4.2.

The guy is very talented but the odd thing is, here you have someone like Jtrea, a guy saying we need a MOO bat, saying that Beltre is a must get.

Beltre is not a MOO bat...He is a #6 type hitter. His OBP isn't going to be great..He has had 4 seasons with an OPS of 800 or more..his career OPS is 791 and that is greatly enhanced by 2 monster years.

I don't see how you can say he is a must get, especially if you are talking about the importance of a MOO bat.

Beltre's value is much moreso tied up in his glove than his bat.

Now, I am fine with pursuing him and I would really like to add him to this team. But I don't see the urgency to give him a stupid contract. He isn't that good.[/QUOTE]

The bolded statements cannot be repeated enough. JTrea please, please read and comprehend.

[clapdiddy]

You're probably right, but I think most teams are intelligent enough to recognize the stadium in which he had the bulk of his at bats. Most reasonably intelligent people know that Beltre isn't some offensive force. The bulk of his value to most teams is with the glove.

I really wonder if Beltre has, in fact, received a 5 year offer from Oakland. I'm beginning to think that some of these reports are not true.

However, MacPhail has made it pretty clear that focusing on defense is a big deal to him. I'm wondering if they are going to "overpay" for Beltre's defensive ability?

[JTrea81]

Over the years on this site, you would be hard pressed to find a bigger Beltre supporter than i am.

When he appeared to be easily available years ago, i wanted to get him, while many didn't..The next year, he hit 48 homers in LA.

I have always been a big fan of his and love the talent and upside of him.

He has been hindered by great pitchers parks IMO and that has to be taken into account when you look at his previous numbers.

That being said, he has a career OBP of 328. He has a career BA of 275 which is helped out by his BA this past year, where he saw a very lucky BABIP, for him.

Despite playing in pitchers parks, Beltre has almost always had a HR/FB rate over 10%, so he was still getting balls out of the yard.

His walk rates are poor.

In the last 12 years, he has averaged a WAR of 4.2.

The guy is very talented but the odd thing is, here you have someone like Jtrea, a guy saying we need a MOO bat, saying that Beltre is a must get.

Beltre is not a MOO bat...He is a #6 type hitter. His OBP isn't going to be great..He has had 4 seasons with an OPS of 800 or more..his career OPS is 791 and that is greatly enhanced by 2 monster years.

I don't see how you can say he is a must get, especially if you are talking about the importance of a MOO bat.

Beltre's value is much moreso tied up in his glove than his bat.

Now, I am fine with pursuing him and I would really like to add him to this team. But I don't see the urgency to give him a stupid contract. He isn't that good.[/QUOTE]

The bolded statements cannot be repeated enough. JTrea please, please read and comprehend.

Beltre played in two pitchers parks in Dodger Stadium and Safeco Field, so I would imagine those parks played into his poorer stats as you stated.

Also, Beltre even at an .800 OPS would be a MOO hitter on this club. Maybe not on a playoff team, but he'd instantly be one of the best hitters we'd have, as that's how bad our offense is.

You start him out at #3 and then let Wieters and Jones develop over the season, and then maybe you can move him down.

I've also stated that we need two MOO hitters at the #3 and #4 spots to properly configure this offense. They need the threat at the #4 spot, and then somebody like Beltre would suffice for the #3 spot until the younger guys show they can move up there.

But given the lack of a better option in our system and on the FA market at 3B for the next several years, Beltre is a must get even though he's not the ideal #3 hitter.

[Hank Scorpio]

I really wonder if Beltre has, in fact, received a 5 year offer from Oakland. I'm beginning to think that some of these reports are not true.

However, MacPhail has made it pretty clear that focusing on defense is a big deal to him. I'm wondering if they are going to "overpay" for Beltre's defensive ability?

Well, he IS a Boras client. Who reported the 5 year offer?

[Hank Scorpio]

Also, Beltre even at an .800 OPS would be a MOO hitter on this club. Maybe not on a playoff team, but he'd instantly be one of the best hitters we'd have, as that's how bad our offense is.

Wherever this argument goes from here, you lose.

[JTrea81]

Wherever this argument goes from here, you lose.

Why because it's true? I've already stated Beltre's value comes from his defense, but his offense on this team would be quite welcome.

And getting out of Safeco can only help in that regard.

[Hank Scorpio]

Why because it's true? I've already stated Beltre's value comes from his defense, but his offense on this team would be quite welcome.

And getting out of Safeco can only help in that regard.

How is Beltre an acceptable middle of the order bat, but Derrek Lee isn't?

[Sports Guy]

Beltre played in two pitchers parks in Dodger Stadium and Safeco Field, so I would imagine those parks played into his poorer stats as you stated.

Also, Beltre even at an .800 OPS would be a MOO hitter on this club. Maybe not on a playoff team, but he'd instantly be one of the best hitters we'd have, as that's how bad our offense is.

You start him out at #3 and then let Wieters and Jones develop over the season, and then maybe you can move him down.

I've also stated that we need two MOO hitters at the #3 and #4 spots to properly configure this offense. They need the threat at the #4 spot, and then somebody like Beltre would suffice for the #3 spot until the younger guys show they can move up there.

But given the lack of a better option in our system and on the FA market at 3B for the next several years, Beltre is a must get even though he's not the ideal #3 hitter.

Well, if that's the logic you want to use, then so are Reynolds and Lee. You want to have it both ways but you can't.

And I am in total agreement about the parks keeping his stats down some..But the other side to that is you are now signing him to a contract where he will be much older...So, his stats are likely to be worse because of that...at best, you may see these things cancel out and him continue to be a 780-800 OPS hitter over the 5 year period.

You are pronouncing Derrek Lee done, at age 35 and Lee has been a better hitter than Beltre for his entire career..and he was also very good defensively at his position. Now, if we sign Beltre to a 5 year deal, that means you are getting 2 seasons of him being done, at least by your definition of Derrek Lee...the guy who has been a better hitter and even more durable in his career..even though beltre has also been pretty durable.

So, you are really getting 3 years from Beltre and one of them is a year where we aren't contending, 2011.

On top of all of that, Beltre isn't a player that is going to fit your mantra of making everyone else around him a better hitter. Unless he is on a hot streak, if I am a pitcher, i am pitching to Beltre before Markakis.