Bowden: O's have made significant offer to Konerko

[Shopay]

Man, the Orioles are determined to boot that second round pick one way or another...

I think the more accurate statment is they are determined to get a Big Bat even if it costs them the 2nd round pick.

[RVAbird]

I think the more accurate statment is they are determined to get a Big Bat even if it costs them the 2nd round pick.

I think the even more accurate statement is that the they are not very good at determining for which players it is appropriate to sacrifice the pick. Lee or LaRoche plus a second round pick plus money minus risky long-term commitment is just such a better option than Konerko minus the pick plus a 3 or 4 year deal worth too much money.

I don't want to see 80 of the top 90 talents available in the draft pass us by while we sit on our thumbs and pray Konerko doesn't fall off a cliff before he hits age 38.

[webbrick2010]

This. In his age 34 season (last season), he goes out and OPS's .977. His OPS was over .900 twice in his career before that, in 2005 and 2006 (age 29 and 30). Sandwiched in-between those seasons are .841, .742, and .842. While not terrible, it's not exactly what I want to see given in a long-term deal that's likely to end in his age 39 season.

Why??? Is it your money???

Jeez, perhaps he has a couple more great seasons in him.

Perhaps if the O's sign him they can have a winning season.

It's not your money folks!!!!!!!

Sign him, I don't care what Angelos pays him. I want a legitimate power hitter in the lineup and he is the best available.

Wow I cannot believe how this message board likes to hoard PA's money.

[webbrick2010]

This thread is the PERFECT example of why you cannot make anyone happy.

We complain that the Orioles don't make any moves.

We complain when we offer Martinez 4/48 that its too much and too long.

We complain when Martinez signs with the Tigers for 4/50 that we didn't offer enough.

We complain that the Orioles won't make any trades.

We complain that the Orioles are considering losing DH for Bartlett.

We complain that the Orioles aren't aggressive.

We complain that the Orioles made an aggressive offer to another top first baseman.

WTF man? What the hell do we want?

You cannot make GOOD trades without losing good talent.

You cannot get the better talent without overpaying.

You cannot make an omelette without cracking a few eggs.

We HAVE to get better people. If that means overpaying Konerko, then do it. If that means losing DH for Bartlett, then do it.

I fear that no matter WHAT the Orioles do, it won't be the right move for 95% of the people on this board!

At least one other person on this board not afraid to spend PA's money.

Hooray

[Shopay]

I think the even more accurate statement is that the they are not very good at determining for which players it is appropriate to sacrifice the pick. Lee or LaRoche plus a second round pick plus money minus risky long-term commitment is just such a better option than Konerko minus the pick plus a 3 or 4 year deal worth too much money.

I don't want to see 80 of the top 90 talents available in the draft pass us by while we sit on our thumbs and pray Konerko doesn't fall off a cliff before he hits age 38.

I respectfully disagree. I'm speculating here, but I think they want a Big Bat and prefer that it be right handed. Thus, more interest in Martinez, Lee and Konerko, than Pena, LaRoche and Dunn. Plus, having already been spurned by Martinez, AM is putting a few lines in the water in hopes of landing the Big Bat. AM may very well prefer Lee to Konerko, but there's no guarantee that Lee won't pull a Martinez and go else where. Hence, put a few offers out.

[Peace21]

Can I just ask, what's the difference between an acquaintance and an actual source?

[webbrick2010]

I wouldn't...Konerko isn't worth the loss of the pick IMO.

The O's picks are so valuable. They do such a good job of player development. This is evidenced by all the great position players we have developed in the last 10 years. Oh wait we haven't turned out a single impact player in 10 years... but wait that next draft pick is going to turn around the franchise.

[Shopay]

Can I just ask, what's the difference between an acquaintance and an actual source?

Good question Peace. I meet people almost everyday that I consider to be an acquaintance, but they sure as heck don't know what I'm thinking. Not a strong word from Heyman. If he has said close friend, it would have more strength to it, IMO. Maybe that's what he meant.

[RVAbird]

I respectfully disagree. I'm speculating here, but I think they want a Big Bat and prefer that it be right handed. Thus, more interest in Martinez, Lee and Konerko, than Pena, LaRoche and Dunn. Plus, having already been spurned by Martinez, AM is putting a few lines in the water in hopes of landing the Big Bat. AM may very well prefer Lee to Konerko, but there's no guarantee that Lee won't pull a Martinez and go else where. Hence, put a few offers out.

We have legitimate reports of serious offers to both Martinez and Konerko, who are both Type A free agents and are, in my humble opinion, highly overrated.

We have yet to hear MacPhail connected with Derrek Lee, who makes sense for so many reasons repeated over and over.

You may have more faith in the priorities of our front office than I do, but I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt to think they have been aggressive with all the top guys and are willing to let the chips fall where they may. All I've seen thus far is that they are interested in the sexy names who will cost too much in terms of money, years, and draft picks.

[Shopay]

We have legitimate reports of serious offers to both Martinez and Konerko, who are both Type A free agents and are, in my humble opinion, highly overrated.

We have yet to hear MacPhail connected with Derrek Lee, who makes sense for so many reasons repeated over and over.

You may have more faith in the priorities of our front office than I do, but I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt to think they have been aggressive with all the top guys and are willing to let the chips fall where they may. All I've seen thus far is that they are interested in the sexy names who will cost too much in terms of money, years, and draft picks.

I could be wrong, but neither AM or Buck seem like the type of baseball guys that are hung up on the "sexy" names as you call them. Frankly, I haven't seen much of anything about who is or isn't interested in Lee. That doesn't mean the O's aren't. What I do think based on the offers we do know about is that the O's probably perfer the Big Bat to be right handed. Hence, I would be surprised if Lee isn't on the O's radar and may very well have an offer.

[Johnny]

We have legitimate reports of serious offers to both Martinez and Konerko, who are both Type A free agents and are, in my humble opinion, highly overrated.

We have yet to hear MacPhail connected with Derrek Lee, who makes sense for so many reasons repeated over and over.

You may have more faith in the priorities of our front office than I do, but I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt to think they have been aggressive with all the top guys and are willing to let the chips fall where they may. All I've seen thus far is that they are interested in the sexy names who will cost too much in terms of money, years, and draft picks.

Derek Lee only makes sense if you think he has something left in the tank. I watched a lot of both Konerko and Lee last year, and Lee looked like someone about to drop off a cliff. Konerko, itoh, looked like an MVP candidate.

Both players would be good for this franchise, don't get me wrong. Even with a drop in production, Lee is very valuable. He's an awesome 1B, standing six-and-a-half feet and able to stretch. Lee is also known to be a great clubhouse leader, something any young team can use. Lee's bat, however, looked bad last year. He's not a 3-4-5, and if he starts there I don't think he'll stay there very long.

Paul Konerko isn't as good a fielder as Lee, but he isn't bad either. For instance, remember the Buehrle play from the first game of the season last year? Check out Konerko bare-handing the catch at first. Konerko can hold down the cleanup spot or the three-spot, and even if we don't land Reynolds for third, a Roberts/Markakis/Konerko/Scott/Jones/Weiters progression is a balanced mix of speed and power. With an average-to-high OBP from the 7-9 spots we could have a pretty potent lineup.

[RVAbird]

Derek Lee only makes sense if you think he has something left in the tank. I watched a lot of both Konerko and Lee last year, and Lee looked like someone about to drop off a cliff. Konerko, itoh, looked like an MVP candidate.

Both players would be good for this franchise, don't get me wrong. Even with a drop in production, Lee is very valuable. He's an awesome 1B, standing six-and-a-half feet and able to stretch. Lee is also known to be a great clubhouse leader, something any young team can use. Lee's bat, however, looked bad last year. He's not a 3-4-5, and if he starts there I don't think he'll stay there very long.

Paul Konerko isn't as good a fielder as Lee, but he isn't bad either. For instance, remember the Buehrle play from the first game of the season last year? Check out Konerko bare-handing the catch at first. Konerko can hold down the cleanup spot or the three-spot, and even if we don't land Reynolds for third, a Roberts/Markakis/Konerko/Scott/Jones/Weiters progression is a balanced mix of speed and power. With an average-to-high OBP from the 7-9 spots we could have a pretty potent lineup.

If you watched Derrek Lee in the second half, after things with his thumb seemed to be getting better, I think you would have seen a fairly re-invigorated player. I think he's got plenty left in the tank, and his defense and athleticism give him a higher floor than that of Konerko.

Still, if you're basically arguing that they are similarly valuable, why would you justify giving up the second round pick and committing to the age 37 and possibly 38 season for Konerko when you could Lee without any of those drawbacks?

To me, Konerko shouldn't even be considered until/unless Lee comes off the board. If they sign Konerko while Lee is still available, I'll be very upset.

[RVAbird]

I could be wrong, but neither AM or Buck seem like the type of baseball guys that are hung up on the "sexy" names as you call them. Frankly, I haven't seen much of anything about who is or isn't interested in Lee. That doesn't mean the O's aren't. What I do think based on the offers we do know about is that the O's probably perfer the Big Bat to be right handed. Hence, I would be surprised if Lee isn't on the O's radar and may very well have an offer.

Then why are they willing to give up draft picks and spend big money for multiple years on guys who aren't worth it? What other than sexiness of name could justify 4/50 and a punted draft pick for Victor Martinez and Paul Konerko?

These guys just aren't that good! There's not much distance, if any at all, between them and guys who will come cheaper and with less risk.

[BrunoCherrytown]

I agree about the Orioles being morons part.

But you didn't answer the question. We want the best talent, but yet you don't want that talent if its gonna cost us a draft pick, so then we won't be getting the best talent. Its a viscious cycle we're in. How do you get out of it unless you start winning soon. I'm not sure Konerko is the BEST option for the Orioles, but he is certainly a better option than Wiggy or Snyder or any of a bunch of non A or B level free agents.

I look at this personally a couple of ways. And I think your analysis is 100% correct.

But I don't personally look at Konerko as the best talent. And certainly not at a contract for too many years, that costs us a draft pick.

I'm not one to harp on overpaying. I think MacPhail and the O's have been tremendously cheap on every possible front. They should be overpaying.

I just look at signing a possibly, I said possibly, soon to be over over the hill first baseman like Konerko to additional years that would take us out of the running for legit, still have some prime years left first baseman like AGon and Fielder is actually a hidden cheap move.

And then losing a pick on top of it...

Now if people are pro-MacPhail (I'm not) they should have some hope that next year we'll be in the running for Fielder and AGon. Regardless if that's a possibility or not. Because if you are pro-MacPhail, you are riding the "hope train" more than the "results train" at this point. Nothing wrong with that either. Hope is what makes rooting for your team great. Hope and results.

And whatever 1st baseman we get this year, he won't be as good as either of those guys next year. And there's nobody waiting in the minors.

And since we are all okay with overpaying now, then their contracts shouldn't be an issue. If Fielder is believed to be too large in weight for some...AGon should be just fine then.

Now does that mean we won't go after them if we have Konerko? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe Konerko becomes a DH in 2012.

But if that's the case I'd rather have Dunn if i'm intent on losing a pick.

If he sucks at first base this year and he knows we could get Fielder or AGon to hit in the lineup with him, I'd at least hope he'd go for DH'ing then. Can you imagine a middle of the order with Dunn and Fielder or AGon?

That's scary.

He has stated "at this point in his career" he doesn't want to DH. Next year could be a different "point."

To go to your earlier post about how some fans will never be happy regardless of what MacPhail does, for me personally this is an issue of timing.

I'll give one very big example, cause I have a habit of writing book report posts anyways.

Last offseason players/prospects like Tillman/Reimold/Jones had higher trade value I imagine than they do now.

Reimold wasn't publicly dealing with his personal issues and was leading rookies in many offensive categories before going on the DL in September.

Tillman had his no-hitter this year in the minors but it's possible that the promotion/demotions brought down his value a bit. But he was a top ranked prospect in Baseball America last offseason.

Jones was fresh off his GG award and a fine offensive season even with its ups and downs.

Last season maybe we could've traded some combo of these 3 with other pieces for AGon. His contract was still dirt cheap and we had him for a minimum of 2 years.

The Red Sox I remember went after him aggressively and couldn't work out the final deal. Maybe we could've. They will most likely this year now.

Maybe Jones could've been a centerpiece back then with his SD roots.

Good replacement for AGon and his SD roots. And then Tillman could've been the top pitching prospect. I don't know. Then the other pieces of the package.

And frankly regardless of what the other pieces are - because they most likely wouldn't have been Wieters/Matusz - our cupboard wouldn't be that bare knowing what we know now.

So fast forward...If last offseason was now, Jones and Tillman wouldn't get the conversation going without Wieters or Matusz too. So it'd be a conversation killer for any fan I imagine, me included.

But back then may very well have been a different story. Either way it's a hard package to give up as an O's fan, but you gotta give up talent to get talent as the cliche goes.

So say we worked an AGon trade last offseason which according to every source last year (I believe) said he was on the market. And then in addition Andy went over the top instead of "Lurking in the weeds" for say Matt Holiday.

So we just recouped an outfielder to replace the one we lost. We got ourselves an All Star 1st baseman. And we got better.

Definitely an overpay, too many years situation, no doubt.

But if we are now open to overpay/over commit on years for older Konerko-like free agents...last year should have been just as fine as this year if we added say an AGon through a creative trade and Holliday for a contract we would eventually regret in later years.

I remember these kinds of scenarios were proposed last year and we got the "raiding the cupboard" rationale from a good bit of the OH.

I can understand that viewpoint completely and it made a lot of sense to me back then even though I didn't particularly agree with it. But we don't work as GM's for the Orioles. We have other jobs and other skill sets.

But this is MacPhail's job to know the value of his prospects and players. What their futures may hold. It's not ours. We are spectators and fans. Only in fantasy land are we GMs.

Just like i'm playing "fantasy land" now by proposing this 20/20 hindsight scenario. But I did propose it last year too for the very miniscule value that has to this post.

Maybe if MacPhail had a player development and scouting department like our rivals he could've seen an opportunity there. And evaluated a little better. Maybe if he ramped up drafting and international, this wouldn't have been a scary notion last year.

So if Andy gets all the credit in the world for the Bedard trade, which I absolutely believe he deserves, his lack of moves like what i'm talking about here is what I think aggravates fans like me.

It's bold. It has risk. We most likely wouldn't have gone to the world series still. But it would've improved the team dramatically in my opinion.

And this offseason we would've been looking at these old players as final pieces to push us over the top to a World Series. Not as key contributors...final pieces.

So when we are looking at going after the Konerkos of the FA class and overpaying, or over committing on years, plus losing a pick, I don't think it's a "nothing MacPhail does will make fans happy scenario." Not for me at least. I would welcome a personal change of opinion of him. We all know how little amusement is had from having no hope for your team after all.

For me maybe it's that I think he just habitually does things that aren't good enough. Or his timing is wrong in some of our eyes. Or he just doesn't put in the effort to make the O's exceptional in even one particular facet of the game. Any one.

So just because MacPhail is willing to spend now on the Konerko's of the FA class, doesn't mean it'll appease people who are aggravated he hasn't been creative and willing to really pay top dollar in the past. (Without the Tex bit as that's enough of a heated debate there on its own)

I'll be the first to give him well deserved props when I think they are earned. Konerko wouldn't personally do it for me. Obviously others have different opinions.

[Arthur_Bryant]

Why??? Is it your money???

Jeez, perhaps he has a couple more great seasons in him.

Perhaps if the O's sign him they can have a winning season.

It's not your money folks!!!!!!!

Sign him, I don't care what Angelos pays him. I want a legitimate power hitter in the lineup and he is the best available.

Wow I cannot believe how this message board likes to hoard PA's money.

It's not just about the money. It's about getting stuck in 2012 or 2013 with a old first baseman who is on a steep decline. If they're paying him $10MM-plus a season, he is going to play almost regardless of his production. He would have to be Atkins bad before they replace him.

The bigger the investment, the more reluctant they will be to reload.

You are very naive if you really think they would just pay him off and tell him to go away while owing eight figures plus on the contract.

I want to see them spend money and overpay if necessary, but for the right guy.