MacPhail's FA signing history with the O's

[CSB Jack]

Why do you always want to compare to other clubs? Everytime we get into discussions about this, you want to bring up what other teams are doing.

Who gives a damn what they are doing? Let's focus on the Orioles screw-ups and not worry about what the Giants are doing.

Because just like offensive numbers don't exist in a vacuum but are relative to the position played, so it is with value returned on free agents. For instance, .750 OPS with decent defense is not bad for SS, but would suck for 1B (even if it would have been an improvement for the Orioles in 2010.) Similarly, having a negative return value on free agents is not good, but if it turns out that the Orioles' performance was actually better than most or all other teams, including those who followed similar patterns of avoiding the highest priced options, then it would indicate that the baseline for comparison should be understood to be different than where previously assumed.

Of course, if the Orioles are worse than their peers then it would support the position that they are faulty at execution, not just that their approach is flawed. I have no idea how they compare. The return has been underwhelming, but I don't know that there isn't merit to having relatively low cost veterans filling bench roles if you don't have in house young talent ready to move up and gain from the growth opportunity.

[helloharv]

I amazed at some of these posts. This isn't news. MacPhail told everyone what is was doing 3 years ago when he traded Bedard and Miggy. He was rebuilding, cutting salaries, putting a core of young players in place, a foundation for long term growth. Remember grow the arms, buy the bats? Come on people. This is not news.

Every time you look up the O's on Cots Contracts there it is, plain as day. O's salaries 2007 = 93M, 2008 = 67M. That is what rebuilding teams do.

MacPhail told everyone that expect for rare exceptions there would be no high price free agent until the young pitching arrived. Tex was his one try. I don't even want to start a conversation about whether that was a real try or not.

So, of course, the free agents were stop gaps. Is that some big discovery here in late December three years later?

So most of us think the O's may field their first winning team in 13 years this coming season. Why now? Because the core of young pitching is ready or at least we hope they are. They looked ready in August and September.

So what MacPhail said he was going to do he is doing. Win, lose or draw, he is half way through the off season to fill the holes, put the support players around the core and see what happens.

There are no surprises here people. This has been in the works for three + years.

Besides our draft picks(which every GM does to be part of their teams future) What specfic players did Andy bring in during this rebuilding effort that are a major part of our future?

[hoosiers]

Why do you always want to compare to other clubs? Everytime we get into discussions about this, you want to bring up what other teams are doing.

Who gives a damn what they are doing? Let's focus on the Orioles screw-ups and not worry about what the Giants are doing.

Because GMs of all teams make mistakes all the time and to focus on a bunch of little $2M mistakes while not understand what goes on around major league baseball is to pretend the Os are the only team in the league.

Harping on mistakes is a favorite past time around here as if it's a huge sin of our front office to sign a middling reliever for $2M and maybe if folks stopped to gather some perspective they would see that other FOs make more mistakes than ours.

It's more than a little hypocritical to jump all over our GM for signing a $2M reliever, but when that GM runs circles around the OH saving $2M on a move like the Koji one, it's seen as lucky or stupid!

[MrOrange82]

Because GMs of all teams make mistakes all the time and to focus on a bunch of little $2M mistakes while not understand what goes on around major league baseball is to pretend the Os are the only team in the league.

Harping on mistakes is a favorite past time around here as if it's a huge sin of our front office to sign a middling reliever for $2M and maybe if folks stopped to gather some perspective they would see that other FOs make more mistakes than ours.

It's more than a little hypocritical to jump all over our GM for signing a $2M reliever, but when that GM runs circles around the OH saving $2M on a move like the Koji one, it's seen as lucky or stupid!

Inaction can often be (fairly) called a mistake...and it's something we've seen plenty of from MacPhail's tenure. He's been an active trader, and a relatively inactive FA-signer and drafter/developer.

IMO, if you're going to make comparisons to GMs for other teams, stick to the AL East, because SG's right...the Giants' path to the playoffs is much, much different than that of the Orioles, and, accordingly, the Giants' "mistakes," whatever they might be, don't really compare helpfully to those of the Orioles.

[Sports Guy]

Because GMs of all teams make mistakes all the time and to focus on a bunch of little $2M mistakes while not understand what goes on around major league baseball is to pretend the Os are the only team in the league.

Harping on mistakes is a favorite past time around here as if it's a huge sin of our front office to sign a middling reliever for $2M and maybe if folks stopped to gather some perspective they would see that other FOs make more mistakes than ours.

It's more than a little hypocritical to jump all over our GM for signing a $2M reliever, but when that GM runs circles around the OH saving $2M on a move like the Koji one, it's seen as lucky or stupid!

First of all, what reliever has he signed for 2 million that he has really gotten bashed about?

Secondly, what difference does it make if other GMs make mistakes. We all agree that no GM is perfect and that mistakes are going to be made..However, not only is he making mistakes, he isn't making this team anything close to a contender.

His mistakes are large...He doesn't make the neccassary ML moves to make us a contender...He doesn't do enough in amateur signings to make us a contender long term.

While he has built a potentially solid foundation, he is essentially putting all of his eggs in one basket and if it fails, we are screwed because he has no talent coming up anytime soon because he has failed to continue to load up the farm system.

I know all you want to do is make excuses for him and act as if he is some special talent as a GM but the bottom line is he has been a mediocre at best GM for years now..not just his stint in Baltimore. You want to pat him on the back for not getting into an Aaron Rowand contract..Fine, good for you..Him not being a total moron is a trait that you think is good..To me, its one I expect and feel he deserves no credit for.

And to bring in what other teams are doing is just stupid. How many of those other teams have our resources combined with 13 years of losing and a declining, albeit passionate, fan base? The answer is NO OTHER TEAM has that. We are the only ones. We are the team further away from contention than everyone else and what has our GM done to really close that gap, either short or long term? It makes no difference that teams make poor signings. What matters is what is our GM doing to make us a contender, either in the short or the long term and the answer to that question is that he is doing very little.

And, on top of all of that, when he chooses to dip into free agency, he usually screws it up because he identifies the wrong players and pays middling contracts for middling, declining, older talents that have very little upside.

[wildcard]

The jury is still out on MacPhail's time with the O's. He has had a plan to bring the O's back to contention after many years near the bottom of the division. Acquire young players. Was his talent evaluation good enough? We do not know yet.

MacPhail's legacy as the architect and leader of the O's revival is not written yet. But the time for a big jump in wins is at hand. This year will tell a lot.

[BrunoCherrytown]

First of all, what reliever has he signed for 2 million that he has really gotten bashed about?

Secondly, what difference does it make if other GMs make mistakes. We all agree that no GM is perfect and that mistakes are going to be made..However, not only is he making mistakes, he isn't making this team anything close to a contender.

His mistakes are large...He doesn't make the neccassary ML moves to make us a contender...He doesn't do enough in amateur signings to make us a contender long term.

While he has built a potentially solid foundation, he is essentially putting all of his eggs in one basket and if it fails, we are screwed because he has no talent coming up anytime soon because he has failed to continue to load up the farm system.

I know all you want to do is make excuses for him and act as if he is some special talent as a GM but the bottom line is he has been a mediocre at best GM for years now..not just his stint in Baltimore. You want to pat him on the back for not getting into an Aaron Rowand contract..Fine, good for you..Him not being a total moron is a trait that you think is good..To me, its one I expect and feel he deserves no credit for.

And to bring in what other teams are doing is just stupid. How many of those other teams have our resources combined with 13 years of losing and a declining, albeit passionate, fan base? The answer is NO OTHER TEAM has that. We are the only ones. We are the team further away from contention than everyone else and what has our GM done to really close that gap, either short or long term? It makes no difference that teams make poor signings. What matters is what is our GM doing to make us a contender, either in the short or the long term and the answer to that question is that he is doing very little.

And, on top of all of that, when he chooses to dip into free agency, he usually screws it up because he identifies the wrong players and pays middling contracts for middling, declining, older talents that have very little upside.

Excellent post! You've summed up the problem perfectly.

[GoldGlove21]

Besides our draft picks(which every GM does to be part of their teams future) What specfic players did Andy bring in during this rebuilding effort that are a major part of our future?

So we are not going to count:

Adam Jones

Chris Tillman

Luke Scott

Mark Reynolds

He traded for those guys, but we can easily argue that they are likely to be key parts over the next 2-3 years+. MacPhail has brought some quality individuals in through the trade and the draft. His history however, does show that he has difficulty recruiting big names via free agency. He seems to like to spend his money on known entities like extending his own players.

[GoldGlove21]

First of all, what reliever has he signed for 2 million that he has really gotten bashed about?

Secondly, what difference does it make if other GMs make mistakes. We all agree that no GM is perfect and that mistakes are going to be made..However, not only is he making mistakes, he isn't making this team anything close to a contender.

His mistakes are large...He doesn't make the neccassary ML moves to make us a contender...He doesn't do enough in amateur signings to make us a contender long term.

While he has built a potentially solid foundation, he is essentially putting all of his eggs in one basket and if it fails, we are screwed because he has no talent coming up anytime soon because he has failed to continue to load up the farm system.

I know all you want to do is make excuses for him and act as if he is some special talent as a GM but the bottom line is he has been a mediocre at best GM for years now..not just his stint in Baltimore. You want to pat him on the back for not getting into an Aaron Rowand contract..Fine, good for you..Him not being a total moron is a trait that you think is good..To me, its one I expect and feel he deserves no credit for.

And to bring in what other teams are doing is just stupid. How many of those other teams have our resources combined with 13 years of losing and a declining, albeit passionate, fan base? The answer is NO OTHER TEAM has that. We are the only ones. We are the team further away from contention than everyone else and what has our GM done to really close that gap, either short or long term? It makes no difference that teams make poor signings. What matters is what is our GM doing to make us a contender, either in the short or the long term and the answer to that question is that he is doing very little.

And, on top of all of that, when he chooses to dip into free agency, he usually screws it up because he identifies the wrong players and pays middling contracts for middling, declining, older talents that have very little upside.

This is a quality post and accurate IMO. I am not going to bash the guy, but he is not GM of the year either.

[JTrea81]

And, on top of all of that, when he chooses to dip into free agency, he usually screws it up because he identifies the wrong players and pays middling contracts for middling, declining, older talents that have very little upside.

Like say, Derrek Lee or Adam LaRoche?

[Sports Guy]

Like say, Derrek Lee or Adam LaRoche?

LaRoche yes...Lee not as much.

Lee has upside and could pay big dividends for us.

HOWEVER, the Orioles really shouldn't be signing either of them...They should be trading for a young blocked first baseman like Alonso.

That is the best thing for this team to do but AM just can't make that move.

So, since he can't do it, then you go with the best FA option you can and that is and always has been DLee.

If you read the sabermetrics thread crstoner started, all 3 of the guys he interviewed agree that Lee has good upside and a is a candidate for a bounce back year...A bounce back year could mean a trade or draft picks for us.

[helloharv]

Jones, Tillman, and Pie are the only ones I can think of and only Jones is a good bet to be a "major" part of the future. The better question, IMO, is what he didn't do. He didn't trade Bergesen, Arrieta, etc.. The team took it's lumps while these guys rose up through the system and started to establish themselves in the majors. Now, most people are predicting a .500 record based on the young pitching that AM held onto. The only way I can think of to bring in major pieces of the future is by the draft, by trade, and by FA. Once he traded Tejada and Bedard, there really was no way to trade for a major piece without giving up a package of young talent. I'm not sure what miracle you expected there. As for FA's, I think we've been through that discussion about a thousand times already.

Thanks for your response.

Not sure why wildcard didn't answer since I directed the question to him

I hapen to think Pie is a 4th outfielder but lets go with it ...so in Andy's MAJOR REBUILD.... he has brought in only THREE guys to help our team win in the future over 3+ years

PS - I will make a wager with you or anyone that we won't be a winning team this year since I don't think Andy has done enough to improve our club.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Thanks for your response.

Not sure why wildcard didn't answer since I directed the question to him

I hapen to think Pie is a 4th outfielder but lets go with it ...so in Andy's MAJOR REBUILD.... he has brought in only THREE guys to help our team win in the future over 3+ years

When the cupboard is bare, you don't exactly have a plethora of items to trade, do you?

[helloharv]

When the cupboard is bare, you don't exactly have a plethora of items to trade, do you?

Bedard and Tejada brought two of the three guys mentioned.

So you are saying he really hasn't done anything since those trades over 3 years ago ? If he has been in major rebuilding mode like most on this board seem to think...what has he been doing the last three years if he hasn't brought in any major player for our future? Isn't that what rebuilding is?

Finally if you don't think he has anyone to trade...should he try signing impact free-agents that will help us win in the future and will be part of our rebuilding effort?

[Crazysilver03]

Bedard and Tejada brought two of the three guys mentioned.

So you are saying he really hasn't done anything since those trades over 3 years ago ? If he has been in major rebuilding mode like most on this board seem to think...what has he been doing the last three years if he hasn't brought in any major player for our future? Isn't that what rebuilding is?

Finally if you don't think he has anyone to trade...should he try signing impact free-agents that will help us win in the future and will be part of our rebuilding effort?

MacPhail went for quantity over (but not necessarily) quality. Bedard netted us Jones, Tillman, Sherrill, Mickolio, and Butler. Sherill was turned into Bell and S Johnson, while Mickolio was packaged with David Hernandez to get us Mark Reynolds. Butler was released this past season. So essentially, Bedard and D. Hernandez netted us Reynolds, Jones, Tillman, Bell, and S. Johnson. Personally, that deal is better than the originally deal IMO.

Tejada netted us Scott, Albers, Sarfate, Patton, and Costanzo. Albers has subsequently been released (and signed with the Red Sox). Sarfate left via minor league free agency (and went to Japan). Costanzo was released after two horrible seasons. All we have to show for it is Scott and the possibility Patton becomes a decent bullpen arm. Knowing what we know about MacPhail's tendency to offer arbitration, there is no way Tejada would have been offered arbitration after making $13M.

Pie was obtained using Olson and a minor leaguer. Hardy was obtained using a resurgent Hoey and Jacobson (who was obtained for Huff).

We traded our valuable chips (Bedard, Tejada, Sherrill, Olson, Hernandez, Tejada again, and Ohman).

It can be argued that the Orioles should have traded Millwood or Huff earlier. The Orioles at least traded high on Sherrill and signed two stop-gaps (Tejada and Ohman) this past season and turned them into valueable pieces (hopefully) moving forward.

To me, part of rebuilding is allowing the prospects to finally take over. How long did we here "we will let the young guys play," yet they never did.

I think MacPhail could have done a better job bringing in other talent, but a lot of talent he has acquired has taken a step back (Costanzo, Butler, Mickolio, Hill, Pie, Bell, S. Johnson, Tillman). Now maybe we can get some additional talent if we trade Hardy, Gonzalez, or Uehara this season.