Jeter Did 'Roids...

[BaltimoreTerp]

...if you go by the standard of looking at how players bodies change as they age.

http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2010/12/31/the-problem-with-believing-everything-our-eyes-see/

Young Jeter:

<img src="http://itsabout.server304.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Jeter-young-218x300.jpg"></img>

Old Jeter:

<img src="http://itsabout.server304.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Jeter-old-230x300.jpg"></img>

Great article that shows how ridiculous it is to make these kinds of assumptions.

[scOtt]

"'Roids" is a contraction for another term......

Just sayin'...

[BaltimoreTerp]

"'Roids" is a contraction for another term......

Just sayin'...

What he and A-Rod do in their own bedroom is their business :wedge:

[Moose Milligan]

beaner's gonna come flying in here anytime now...

[byrdz]

Looks as though Thomas was always giant, as well as Ortiz' head, and Pedro's mullet.

[Moose Milligan]

And after reading the article and looking at the pics, it's pretty interesting. First of all, it's sad to see Pearlman make such idiotic statements because he's a writer that I've enjoyed reading.

His stance on Bagwell is pretty ridiculous. Look at that pic of him as a young Astro closely...there's a fair amount of muscle there. Look at his forearm, it's pretty thick. That jersey is pretty snug, and if you trace the outline of his body you can see that he's pretty muscular already. He's thin, but he's got plenty of lean muscle mass. Not to sound like I'm riding the rainbow here, but I bet under that shirt is a 6 pack. His thighs are pretty thick and muscular and with that ridiculous batting stance he had, they'd have to be. From the pic on the right, he just gained weight as he got older. He's still plenty muscular but I think that 6 pack went to more of a barrel. Your metabolism slows, it's natural.

You can gain significant muscle mass without using anything illegal...drinking protein shakes, a strict lifting regimen, eating right...For a guy like Bagwell who was never named in any reports, never accused by anyone, to be held out of the HoF because a guy like Pearlman doesn't know square 1 about lifting or how bodies change over time is pretty ridiculous.

Everyone holds up Griffey as the gold standard of the "he did it clean!" argument becaue he was skinny. Well I just found this picture of Griffey:

<img src = "http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2009/04/02/2008974893.jpg">

It's from - I think- 1999, that fateful weekend of horrific futuristic "turn ahead the clock" uniforms. Well whenever, it was definitely from Griffey's first go-round with the Mariners.

Yeah, he's skinny, but look at his arms! Thats pretty significant muscle there...you can be skinny with plenty of lean muscle mass, just like that. And too many people confuse "ripped" with huge muscles. Being "ripped" just means you have less than 10% bodyfat. The veins pop out, you get that 6 pack, your muscles are defined. However in this pic of Griffey, it's plain to see that while being skinny he had large arms AND very little bodyfat.

Know who else?

<img src = "http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/57193034.jpg">

<img src = "http://slanchreport.com/images/stories/willie-mays-jacked.jpg">

<img src = "http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lgHJ4sCqFM4/SrIxk1liZXI/AAAAAAAACr8/7_V14PAnOFA/s400/may0-046.jpg">

I bought my dad the Willie Mays book for Christmas, and in the pictures on the inside is a picture of him after the 54 series, celebrating in the clubhouse, sans shirt. Jacked! Ripped! If he was playing today and showed off those guns, that idiot Pearlman would be accusing him of something Mays never did.

Look at those Rickey Henderson photos...he was built like an NFL running back, no one ever thought Rickey did anything.

Pretty ridiculous. I always liked Bagwell and thought he seemed like a classy guy, kinda in the Ripken mold...show up, play hard every day, don't say much. I liked his unorthodox approach to hitting from his crouch to taking a step back when the pitch was being delivered. I hope he makes it and I hope Pearlman one day understands why making assumptions like that is stupid.

[BaltBird 24]

I really, really, really, really hope that CC Sabathia is on 'roids.

Most of those guys just look a bit pudgier than when they were younger, which I'd expect with most men as they age. Not all of them had Bonds transformations.

[beaner]

beaner's gonna come flying in here anytime now...

I would have been here sooner, but I fainted as soon as I saw the title of the thread and I just came to.

[makoman]

We finally have an explanation for Arrieta's stache--he's simply emulating Greg Maddux!

[sangar]

Is it ridiculous to look at Bonds prior to 1998.... and then after, and wonder how a 37 year old man suddenly transforms his body for the better?

I hope not. I'm 51 and believe I could do that, if I really wanted to.

[Moose Milligan]

Is it ridiculous to look at Bonds prior to 1998.... and then after, and wonder how a 37 year old man suddenly transforms his body for the better?

It's not ridiculous at all. It's NOT normal for someone that age to put on that amount of muscle and have his hat size grow a few sizes. That just doesn't happen.

[Dagger420]

And after reading the article and looking at the pics, it's pretty interesting. First of all, it's sad to see Pearlman make such idiotic statements because he's a writer that I've enjoyed reading.

His stance on Bagwell is pretty ridiculous. Look at that pic of him as a young Astro closely...there's a fair amount of muscle there. Look at his forearm, it's pretty thick. That jersey is pretty snug, and if you trace the outline of his body you can see that he's pretty muscular already. He's thin, but he's got plenty of lean muscle mass. Not to sound like I'm riding the rainbow here, but I bet under that shirt is a 6 pack. His thighs are pretty thick and muscular and with that ridiculous batting stance he had, they'd have to be. From the pic on the right, he just gained weight as he got older. He's still plenty muscular but I think that 6 pack went to more of a barrel. Your metabolism slows, it's natural.

You can gain significant muscle mass without using anything illegal...drinking protein shakes, a strict lifting regimen, eating right...For a guy like Bagwell who was never named in any reports, never accused by anyone, to be held out of the HoF because a guy like Pearlman doesn't know square 1 about lifting or how bodies change over time is pretty ridiculous.

Everyone holds up Griffey as the gold standard of the "he did it clean!" argument becaue he was skinny. Well I just found this picture of Griffey:

It's from - I think- 1999, that fateful weekend of horrific futuristic "turn ahead the clock" uniforms. Well whenever, it was definitely from Griffey's first go-round with the Mariners.

Yeah, he's skinny, but look at his arms! Thats pretty significant muscle there...you can be skinny with plenty of lean muscle mass, just like that. And too many people confuse "ripped" with huge muscles. Being "ripped" just means you have less than 10% bodyfat. The veins pop out, you get that 6 pack, your muscles are defined. However in this pic of Griffey, it's plain to see that while being skinny he had large arms AND very little bodyfat.

Know who else?

I bought my dad the Willie Mays book for Christmas, and in the pictures on the inside is a picture of him after the 54 series, celebrating in the clubhouse, sans shirt. Jacked! Ripped! If he was playing today and showed off those guns, that idiot Pearlman would be accusing him of something Mays never did.

Look at those Rickey Henderson photos...he was built like an NFL running back, no one ever thought Rickey did anything.

Pretty ridiculous. I always liked Bagwell and thought he seemed like a classy guy, kinda in the Ripken mold...show up, play hard every day, don't say much. I liked his unorthodox approach to hitting from his crouch to taking a step back when the pitch was being delivered. I hope he makes it and I hope Pearlman one day understands why making assumptions like that is stupid.

I can't really tell if you are trying to say guys like Bagwell and Henderson had no connections to Roids...

Bagwell played with Caminiti who was admitted roider, and Biggio, who magically started hitting for power around the mid-90's. Bagwell also played with Luis Gonzalez and Steve Finley who later were suspected of steroid use in Arizona.

Examining the three players Caminiti, Biggio and Bagwell...Bagwell and Biggio each had about 20 hrs in around 700 abs in 1993. Caminiti hit 13 in about 600 abs. Then in the strike-shortened 1994, Bagwell had one less than double his HR total in just 400 abs and started mashing for the next few years despite breaking his left hand in each of the 1993, 1994 and 1995 seasons. Caminiti improved to 18 hrs in 400 abs and the next couple years in SD exploded for 26 and then 40 by 1996 (at age 32). Biggio decreased to only 6 hrs in 1994, but led the league in doubles and went on to hit 20 or more hrs six times in his career after the age of 30, despite hitting more than 20 only twice in his first 8 full seasons.

I'm just saying, all three of these guys started getting much more powerful all around the same time and they weren't that young by any means.

As for as Henderson, he was on the A's when Canseco and McGwire were in their heyday of roid usage.

Also its not like every player implicated with roids was a home run hitter. Larry Bigbie never broke any home run records, neither did Manny Alexander or Randy Velarde. **** Wally Joyner admitted to Buster Olney he did steroids in 1997 with Caminiti in SD and he only hit 13 hrs.

I think steroids were pretty heavily used in the bigs. I think its pretty safe to assume most guys in the league leaders throughout the mid-late 90s likely at least dabbled in them. I don't think its possible to really figure out who is clean or dirty, I think the we will never know for sure about everybody.

But for them to be held out of the Hall of Fame is silly. Its the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Nice People. These players were the best of their generations and should be regarded as such.

[Dagger420]

To let Bagwell have his side with the issue, from http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=5963276

"I wasn't trying to do anything crazy. I hit six homers in the minor leagues. Six home runs. I hit 15, 18 and 21 in Houston, and then I hit 39 in 1994 when I started working with Rudy Jaramillo and he helped me to understand my swing and I actually learned how to hit. And I was like, 'I don't need anything more. I'm good.' When I walked on the field I thought I was the best player on the field, and I didn't need anything more than that. It was never an ego thing with me, and I think at some point, it became ego to some people."

Just for the record, Jarmillo was the hitting coach in Texas in the mid-90's right after his stint in Houston which was when Gonzalez and Pudge and company all got crazy big. Coincidence? Who knows?

I loved Bags growing up and would love to believe him, its just hard with all the players who I wanted to believe weren't so roided coming out. I still hope he's in the Hall either way.

[Moose Milligan]

I can't really tell if you are trying to say guys like Bagwell and Henderson had no connections to Roids...

Bagwell played with Caminiti who was admitted roider, and Biggio, who magically started hitting for power around the mid-90's. Bagwell also played with Luis Gonzalez and Steve Finley who later were suspected of steroid use in Arizona.

Examining the three players Caminiti, Biggio and Bagwell...Bagwell and Biggio each had about 20 hrs in around 700 abs in 1993. Caminiti hit 13 in about 600 abs. Then in the strike-shortened 1994, Bagwell had one less than double his HR total in just 400 abs and started mashing for the next few years despite breaking his left hand in each of the 1993, 1994 and 1995 seasons. Caminiti improved to 18 hrs in 400 abs and the next couple years in SD exploded for 26 and then 40 by 1996 (at age 32). Biggio decreased to only 6 hrs in 1994, but led the league in doubles and went on to hit 20 or more hrs six times in his career after the age of 30, despite hitting more than 20 only twice in his first 8 full seasons.

I'm just saying, all three of these guys started getting much more powerful all around the same time and they weren't that young by any means.

As for as Henderson, he was on the A's when Canseco and McGwire were in their heyday of roid usage.

Also its not like every player implicated with roids was a home run hitter. Larry Bigbie never broke any home run records, neither did Manny Alexander or Randy Velarde. **** Wally Joyner admitted to Buster Olney he did steroids in 1997 with Caminiti in SD and he only hit 13 hrs.

I think steroids were pretty heavily used in the bigs. I think its pretty safe to assume most guys in the league leaders throughout the mid-late 90s likely at least dabbled in them. I don't think its possible to really figure out who is clean or dirty, I think the we will never know for sure about everybody.

But for them to be held out of the Hall of Fame is silly. Its the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Nice People. These players were the best of their generations and should be regarded as such.

I agree on all points. I don't think Biggio was on roids...most baseball people will tell you that power is the last thing to develop, however Biggio always hit a fair amount of doubles. He even lead the league three times, and once at age 28. His homer totals per season are all over the place, ranging anywhere from under 10 (in some injury seasons, but still over 100 games) to lower 20's. I don't think he was on the juice...but as you said, anyone being named in the era as being on the juice wouldn't surprise me.

But, same with Bagwell...never named by any clubhouse guys, never named on the Mitchell Report, never named by any ex teammates...his power did explode, this is true...however no ones ever said anything about him. On some of these guys, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and that's the case with Biggio and Bagwell.

As far as Henderson, I was more commenting on his body type. He was, positively, a short, musclebound dude who could hit with some pop. He hit 28 homers in his career twice and his homer totals from season to season were all over the place as well...if Pearlman is so hung up on accusing people of being on roids due to body type, why not accuse Rickey?

[Dagger420]

I agree on all points. I don't think Biggio was on roids...most baseball people will tell you that power is the last thing to develop, however Biggio always hit a fair amount of doubles. He even lead the league three times, and once at age 28. His homer totals per season are all over the place, ranging anywhere from under 10 (in some injury seasons, but still over 100 games) to lower 20's. I don't think he was on the juice...but as you said, anyone being named in the era as being on the juice wouldn't surprise me.

But, same with Bagwell...never named by any clubhouse guys, never named on the Mitchell Report, never named by any ex teammates...his power did explode, this is true...however no ones ever said anything about him. On some of these guys, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and that's the case with Biggio and Bagwell.

As far as Henderson, I was more commenting on his body type. He was, positively, a short, musclebound dude who could hit with some pop. He hit 28 homers in his career twice and his homer totals from season to season were all over the place as well...if Pearlman is so hung up on accusing people of being on roids due to body type, why not accuse Rickey?

Yea, I just wish there was a definitive way to know who did and did not so people who did not, such as possibly Bagwell and Frank Thomas, could be given the proper due praise, but I guess the MLBPA was too powerful to let testing happen until it was too late. Now its sad that a few clean people may be tarnished by an era of steroid use.