Who is a better defensive SS than Miggy?

[os1971]

I watch Miggy day in and day out, and I'm telling you he has decent range at SS.

He's probably a bit below average in the range department, but its not terrible. He positions himself more towards the hole, which limits his ability to get to balls up the middle. He does this because his arm strength allows him to make plays in the hole that most SS would eat or throw late. He gets outs on fewer balls up the middle than most SS, but he gets outs on far more balls in the hole than most SS do.

This is accurate, yet misleading IMO. His ability to play balls to the right is above average primarily due to his arm (as you stated). If he is shading to the right more (probably because of his decreased mobility) that means more and more balls are going through on the left.

As I recall his FB numbers showed significanlty above average range to the right and sginificantly below average to the left as far back as 2003. I'd say that margin will be worse to the right and to worse to significantly worse to the left as the new FB results are published for the 2006-2007 data.

Certainly, his ability to make plays to his right (primarily because of his arm, not his range) has kept him an average to slightly above average shortsop for several years (I'd say up to about 2004-2005). But its quite obvious that his range/speed/lateral movement in both directions is obviously declining. Frankly your assertation of him shading to the right to amplify his arm strength is really and admission of that. If he had the same speed/lateral movement then why would he need to compensate more and more to the right.

Of course this doesn't even take into account his ball handling and flyball handling ability, both of which are significantly below averge as well.

[Spoonless]

Perhaps those mental errors are just a result of him being fed up with this team...Fed up with all the walks.

I am not trying to say it is ok for him to have these errors but it does have to get to a player after a while.

This is part of why I think he'll be better defensively if he's traded. Put him on a team where he's not the de facto leader, and I think he'll flourish.

[Mackus]

This is part of why I think he'll be better defensively if he's traded. Put him on a team where he's not the de facto leader, and I think he'll flourish.

Miggy's got great leadership skills, I don't think thats the issue. The issue with his focus is simply that he can't stand being on such a terrible team. He's gotta be motivated to play his hardest, and thats just not possibly on a team who's goal is to win 75 games. He was a sparkplug on the great Oakland teams and for us in 2005 when things were good. But he's clearly been beaten down over the past couple seasons.

I defintiely agree that he will be a big impact player for a least a couple more seasons whenever he is traded.

[OsEatAlEast]

Here's my acessment on Tejada's defense. He has decent range and a cannon arm, but could use some work on his positioning.

[Fairfax Bird]

I watch Miggy day in and day out, and I'm telling you he has decent range at SS.

He's probably a bit below average in the range department, but its not terrible. He positions himself more towards the hole, which limits his ability to get to balls up the middle. He does this because his arm strength allows him to make plays in the hole that most SS would eat or throw late. He gets outs on fewer balls up the middle than most SS, but he gets outs on far more balls in the hole than most SS do.

I think his range up the middle is very bad. His range in the hole is decent, because of his arm.

Roch has stated several times that scouts agree that he doesn't have the range to play SS at an acceptable rate anymore. I tend to agree with this, yet I also believe that if he was playing for a winner he would somehow improve.

[wildcard]

This is a terrible trade. And "like another" implies there was a first good reason.

I disagree. If the goal is to get a better defensive SS and to replace Miggy's bat then this a pretty good trade. Now the case has been made that the O's should just go for the best player available. I understand the argument but I think it is short sighted if the O's intend to try to keep BRob and Bedard which we have heard from BB is the initial approach by O's management.

In that case the O's need to fill the holes left in the defensive and lineup by Tejada's trade. Otherwise the team will have huge holes that do not allow the team to get better in 2008. Notice I said better, not contend.

I think McPhail will try to build around his good players. He needs to show good progress in 2008 to convince BRob and Bedard to extend their contracts and be core players over the next 5 years.

I know a lot of people do not think this way but I do. I think the O's chances for a big jump is for their pitching to mature. A better then average defensive can help that happen. Both Wilson and Adam LaRoche will be defensive upgrades for the O's at their positions. I decent offense being in place can help this team be similar to the Tigers if the pitching matures. Adam LaRoche is one of the few proven middle of the order hitters that might to recieved in a Miggy trade.

If you read my first post and the responses in this thread you will see that Wilson is considered by several to be one of the few available ss that can be a defensive improvement for the O's. There is no question that Adam LaRoche is an upgrade to Millar at first. So far it is the best combination I have seen for a trade of Tejada. I keep looking for better but a three way trade with the Pirates looks the best to me right now.

[Sports Guy]

If the goal is to get a better defensive SS and to replace Miggy's bat then this a pretty good trade.

The goal is to get chepaer, deeper, more talented and younger.

Now the case has been made that the O's should just go for the best player available. I understand the argument but I think it is short sighted if the O's intend to try to keep BRob and Bedard which we have heard from BB is the initial approach by O's management.

Even thinking about keeping BRob past 2009 is a mistake..

I think McPhail will try to build around his good players. He needs to show good progress in 2008 to convince BRob and Bedard to extend their contracts and be core players over the next 5 years.

BRob won't be part of any team's "true core" in 3-5 years in all likelihood.

I know a lot of people do not think this way but I do. I think the O's chances for a big jump is for their pitching to mature. A better then average defensive can help that happen. Both Wilson and Adam LaRoche will be defensive upgrades for the O's at their positions. I decent offense being in place can help this team be similar to the Tigers if the pitching matures. Adam LaRoche is one of the few proven middle of the order hitters that might to recieved in a Miggy trade.

It is a terrible trade for the Orioles.

If you read my first post and the responses in this thread you will see that Wilson is considered by several to be one of the few available ss that can be a defensive improvement for the O's. There is no question that Adam LaRoche is an upgrade to Millar at first. So far it is the best combination I have seen for a trade of Tejada

No offense but that is because you are delusional in thinking this team can contend sooner than later. That is a horrible trade for us. LaRoche and Hu is a much better trade for the Orioles.

[Fairfax Bird]

LaRoche and Hu is a much better trade for the Orioles.

SG, do you really think you can get LaRoche and Hu for Tejada? I don't. I think if you want the two of them that Bedard and maybe Kershaw or MeLoan would have to be involved.

[Sports Guy]

SG, do you really think you can get LaRoche and Hu for Tejada? I don't. I think if you want the two of them that Bedard and maybe Kershaw or MeLoan would have to be involved.

Absolutely...The Dodgers don't seem to like LaRoche.

[wildcard]

I like Hu. I am not sold on Andy LaRoche. He is a smaller version of his big brother. I don't think he is a middle of the order hitter for at least three years if then. I don't think the O's can wait that long.

If I look at the lineup in 2009, I would rather have a 3-4 of Markakis/Adam LaRoche than Markakis/ Andy LaRoche. One is a proven 28 year old next year, the other is a 24 year old with a ton to prove.

[Fairfax Bird]

Absolutely...The Dodgers don't seem to like LaRoche.

They may not be sold on him, but that doesn't mean they are going to make a move just to do it. I doubt we get two top prospects like that for him.

[Fairfax Bird]

I like Hu. I am not sold on Andy LaRoche. He is a smaller version of his big brother. I don't think he is a middle of the order hitter for at least three years if then. I don't think the O's can wait that long.

If I look at the lineup in 2009, I would rather have a 3-4 of Markakis/Adam La Roche than Markakis/ Andy LaRoche. One is a proven 28 year old next year the other is a 24 year old with a ton to prove.

Personally, I think you couldn't be more wrong. He has incredible discipline and good power. I think if you give him 500 ABs next year his line would end up being .260/.360/.500

[wildcard]

Personally, I think you couldn't be more wrong. He has incredible discipline and good power. I think if you give him 500 ABs next year his line would end up being .260/.360/.500

You could be right, but you could be wrong. If the O's trade for him it will be much riskier then going for Adam.

[Sports Guy]

They may not be sold on him, but that doesn't mean they are going to make a move just to do it. I doubt we get two top prospects like that for him.

The Dodgers are undervaluing LaRoche and you are overvaluing Hu IMO.

[wildcard]

How about this?

Dodgers get Tejada

Pirates get a cheaper Andy LaRoche

O's get a good defensive ss in Hu and a proven middle of the order hitter in Adam LaRoche