Who is a better defensive SS than Miggy?

[wildcard]

From Rotoworld.com:

Steven Pearce was given the J.G. Taylor Spink Award, which is presented annually to the top player in minor league baseball.

Pearce hit a combined .333 with 31 homers, 40 doubles and 113 RBI in 134 games with three teams. A natural first baseman being tried as an outfielder, Pearce will battle Xavier Nady for a starting job next spring. He could soon make Adam LaRoche expendable in Pittsburgh.

[Fairfax Bird]

From Rotoworld.com:

Steven Pearce was given the J.G. Taylor Spink Award, which is presented annually to the top player in minor league baseball.

Pearce hit a combined .333 with 31 homers, 40 doubles and 113 RBI in 134 games with three teams. A natural first baseman being tried as an outfielder, Pearce will battle Xavier Nady for a starting job next spring. He could soon make Adam LaRoche expendable in Pittsburgh.

I find your fascination for Adam interesting and your disdain for Andy confusing:

Adam LaRoche:

22 years old A+ = .918 OPS, AA = .773

23 years old AA = .892 OPS, AAA = .826

24 years old MLB = .821 OPS

25 years old MLB = .775 OPS

26 years old MLB = .915 OPS

27 years old MLB = .803 OPS

Andy LaRoche:

22 years old AA = .902 OPS, AAA = .950 OPS

23 years old AAA = .988 OPS, MLB = .677 OPS

24 years old = ???

Andy plays 3B so he is at a harder position to fill. He seemingly has the power of his older brother with a much better eye. This confuses me. You want something proven, but we don't need proven as much as we need young, talented players in their 0-2 service years. Andy is the better bet IMO to be a impact player anyway.

[Sports Guy]

I find your fascination for Adam interesting and your disdain for Andy confusing:

Adam LaRoche:

22 years old A+ = .918 OPS, AA = .773

23 years old AA = .892 OPS, AAA = .826

24 years old MLB = .821 OPS

25 years old MLB = .775 OPS

26 years old MLB = .915 OPS

27 years old MLB = .803 OPS

Andy LaRoche:

22 years old AA = .902 OPS, AAA = .950 OPS

23 years old AAA = .988 OPS, MLB = .677 OPS

24 years old = ???

Andy plays 3B so he is at a harder position to fill. He seemingly has the power of his older brother with a much better eye. This confuses me. You want something proven, but we don't need proven as much as we need young, talented players in their 0-2 service years. Andy is the better bet IMO to be a impact player anyway.

Yea, its not comparable.

It all boils down to wildcard thinking we can win now.

[wildcard]

I find your fascination for Adam interesting and your disdain for Andy confusing:

Adam LaRoche:

22 years old A+ = .918 OPS, AA = .773

23 years old AA = .892 OPS, AAA = .826

24 years old MLB = .821 OPS

25 years old MLB = .775 OPS

26 years old MLB = .915 OPS

27 years old MLB = .803 OPS

Andy LaRoche:

22 years old AA = .902 OPS, AAA = .950 OPS

23 years old AAA = .988 OPS, MLB = .677 OPS

24 years old = ???

Andy plays 3B so he is at a harder position to fill. He seemingly has the power of his older brother with a much better eye. This confuses me. You want something proven, but we don't need proven as much as we need young, talented players in their 0-2 service years. Andy is the better bet IMO to be a impact player anyway.

I will give you a few reasons why I think Adam fits better with the O's then Andy.

1) Andy's AAA numbers come the PCL, a hitters league.

The comparable AAA numbers for Adam came from the International League.

2)There is more risk that Andy will not perform well in the majors because he has not done it. Adam has done it.

3) Adam is a proven middle of the order major league hitter. Andy is not.

3) I want to see BRob and Bedard sign long term contracts. I think they will want to see improvement in 2008 from the O's before they do that. Adam's experience and major league track record give him a better chance to help the O's to a winning record in 2008. That plus the arrive of Reimold and Liz. The maturing of the pitching staff under Kranitz. The return of Ray. A year under a better manager in Trembley and a better FA class in 2008 may put the O's in position to contend in 2009. Those are the reasons the BRob and Bedard may sign with the O's in the next year.

[Sports Guy]

I will give you a few reasons why I think Adam fits better with the O's then Andy.

1) Andy's AAA numbers come the PCL, a hitters league.

The comparable AAA numbers for Adam came from the International League.

2)There is more risk that Andy will not perform well in the majors because he has not done it. Adam has done it.

3) Adam is a proven middle of the order major league hitter. Andy is not.

3) I want to see BRob and Bedard sign long term contracts. I think they will want to see improvement in 2008 from the O's before they do that. Adam's experience and major league track record give him a better chance to help the O's to a winner record in 2008. That plus the arrive of Reimold and Liz. The maturing of the pitching staff under Kranitz. The return of Ray. A year under a better manager in Trembley and a better FA class in 2008 may put the O's in position to contend in 2009. Those are the reason the BRob and Bedard may sign with the O's in the next year.

Why do you want to see BRob signed long term?

[wildcard]

Why do you want to see BRob signed long term?

1. He is a Oriole, from the O's farm system.

2. He is a great role model for kids. He does community work in Baltimore.

3. He is a good leadoff guy who should continue with a high OBP the more he learns about hitting up until he is probably about 35. Yes his steal will fall from about 32 on but he can still be a good leadoff guy.

4. He is a good 2nd baseman.

5. As Miggy is traded and Millar goes I think Brian becomes more a veteran leader.

6. As an experience infielder he can help the young ss and 3rd baseman that will come.

[RShack]

1. He is a Oriole, from the O's farm system.

2. He is a great role model for kids. He does community work in Baltimore.

3. He is a good leadoff guy who should continue with a high OBP the more he learns about hitting up until he is probably about 35. Yes his steal will fall from about 32 on but he can still be a good leadoff guy.

4. He is a good 2nd baseman.

5. As Miggy is traded and Millar goes I think Brian becomes more a veteran leader.

6. As an experience infielder he can help the young ss and 3rd baseman that will come.

I agree. I think SG's obsession with trading everybody at the right time makes sense about 95% of the time. I don't think it makes sense 100% of the time. I think it's good to have an "always Oriole" around for kids to look up to. I think it's fine to have 1 or 2 guys who you keep until they are used up and ready to quit. The main reason for this is that you can't put everything about baseball that matters into a spreadsheet.

[wildcard]

Yea, its not comparable.

It all boils down to wildcard thinking we can win now.

If you are a GM, or a fan that likes to think like one, you better be able to put a plan together to win in two years or what good are you.

Do you think when Gillick came to Baltimore he said, Oh this is a bunch of garbage lets blow it up. No, he looked at what he had, at what he needed, and he went and got it.

The plan here should to be a winner next year and a contender in 2009. Now what do you have to do to make that happen. That is the drill. A real GM only has about two years to show he is on the right track anyway.

[RShack]

If you are a GM, or a fan that likes to think like one, you better be able to put a plan together to win in two years or what good are you.

Do you think when Gillick came to Baltimore he said, Oh this is a bunch of garbage lets blow it up. No, he looked at what he had, at what he needed, and he went and got it.

The plan here should to be a winner next year and a contender in 2009. Now what do you have to do to make that happen. That is the drill. A real GM only has about two years to show he is on the right track anyway.

I agree with this too. Wildcard and I don't agree about lotsa stuff, but we agree about this.

2008: Get better and younger.

2009: Depending on how many things go in '08 (many P's, Wieters, Riemold, etc,), then maybe you can contend in '09. Or not, no way to know right now.

2010: Too soon to tell. It depends on 2009, which in turn depends on 2008.

The idea of a Master Plan having it all figured out 2 or 3 years ahead of time just isn't realistic. This isn't like building a car factory.

[RShack]

I watch Miggy day in and day out, and I'm telling you he has decent range at SS.

He's probably a bit below average in the range department, but its not terrible. He positions himself more towards the hole, which limits his ability to get to balls up the middle. He does this because his arm strength allows him to make plays in the hole that most SS would eat or throw late. He gets outs on fewer balls up the middle than most SS, but he gets outs on far more balls in the hole than most SS do.

Exactly. Miggi is very much an excellent ballplayer. People here talk about him like he's some over-the-hill bum. That's just crazy. Miggi is very good, and Miggi delivers. This year was an off year. Most people have off years. I bet next year is better for him.

People get mad at him for dumb stuff. It's not Miggi's fault the organization didn't keep their promise to build around him. He kept his part of the bargain. The O's didn't keep theirs. I think it's fine to trade him if AM can get important guys back. But I ain't mad at Miggi. I know I'm watching an excellent ballplayer when I watch him. I can't believe some of the stuff people say about him.

[Sports Guy]

1. He is a Oriole, from the O's farm system.

So? This was a similar attitude for Brady, Mora, et al...How did that work out?

2. He is a great role model for kids. He does community work in Baltimore.

This is very true.

3. He is a good leadoff guy who should continue with a high OBP the more he learns about hitting up until he is probably about 35. Yes his steal will fall from about 32 on but he can still be a good leadoff guy.

His speed is likely to decrease...With that means less steals(as you said), worse defense and less extra base hits. He will probably be able to draw walks but if all he ends up being is a 350 OBP guy with average at best defense and no power, he isn't worth much.

For us to extend him, IF HE WANTS TO BE EXTENDED(you aren't even considering this), it will probably have to be a 4-5 year deal for 9-12 million a year...That is way too much for him.

4. He is a good 2nd baseman.

For right now...How much longer will that be the case?

5. As Miggy is traded and Millar goes I think Brian becomes more a veteran leader.

So what? Do we need a leader to elad us to 72 wins?

6. As an experience infielder he can help the young ss and 3rd baseman that will come.

This is pretty meaningless IMO.

[Sports Guy]

I agree. I think SG's obsession with trading everybody at the right time makes sense about 95% of the time. I don't think it makes sense 100% of the time. I think it's good to have an "always Oriole" around for kids to look up to. I think it's fine to have 1 or 2 guys who you keep until they are used up and ready to quit. The main reason for this is that you can't put everything about baseball that matters into a spreadsheet.

Yes, let's keep a guy, sacrifice the future of the team, pay him more money than he deserves all because you want him to be an "always Oriole"!

[Sports Guy]

I agree with this too. Wildcard and I don't agree about lotsa stuff, but we agree about this.

2008: Get better and younger.

2009: Depending on how many things go in '08 (many P's, Wieters, Riemold, etc,), then maybe you can contend in '09. Or not, no way to know right now.

2010: Too soon to tell. It depends on 2009, which in turn depends on 2008.

The idea of a Master Plan having it all figured out 2 or 3 years ahead of time just isn't realistic. This isn't like building a car factory.

WC isn't really advocating this though.

[RShack]

Yes, let's keep a guy, sacrifice the future of the team, pay him more money than he deserves all because you want him to be an "always Oriole"!

I don't think it means "sacrificing the future of the team". If you did it with everybody, sure, it would mean that. But a guy or two? I don't think so. I don't care about the absolutely cheapest way to be good. I'm glad Brooks and Palmer and Cal didn't play anywhere else. I think Johnny U. also shouldn't have played anywhere else. I realize that FA affects the economics of it in a way that discourages it. But that doesn't convince me that it's always a bad idea. I think it's a good idea to do now and then. Of course, you need the player in question to buy into too, and not simply go on top-dollar right to the end.

I think it's too soon to know about this and BRob. But we don't need to decide that right now anyway. BRob's not at that crucial contract place yet, and there's other fish to fry first. We don't know how 2008 is gonna go yet anyway, which means we don't yet know what will make sense over the winter between 2008 and 2009. No need to rush. That would be pretending that we know stuff that we don't know yet.

[Sports Guy]

I don't think it means "sacrificing the future of the team". If you did it with everybody, sure, it would mean that. But a guy or two?

It sacrifices the future because BRob is one of the few guys on this team that has real value..And even if you can convince him to stay(again, this is far from a certainty), you are going to drastically overpay for what he is likely to give you production wise.

I'm glad Brooks and Palmer and Cal didn't play anywhere else.

As I am.....BRob isn't in the class of these guys.

I think it's too soon to know about this and BRob. But we don't need to decide that right now anyway. BRob's not at that crucial contract place yet, and there's other fish to fry first. We don't know how 2008 is gonna go yet anyway, which means we don't yet know what will make sense over the winter between 2008 and 2009. No need to rush

His value is likely never going to be higher...He had a good year and is signed cheaply for 2 years...Also, the rule of thumb is position players fetch more in the offseason than they do at the deadline.

It is a perfect storm for BRob and his value right now.

Not trading him this offseason would be a mistake.