Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[DrungoHazewood]

Well that explains it. You think Bagwell and Palmeiro were Musial talents despite the fact that neither did anything close to what Musial did early in their careers (or pre-steroid use for those of us that choose to live in reality). Basically you've taken the ostrich approach to all of this. Stick your head on a hole and act like nothing is happening.

I'm fine with the people that say they don't care about steroids and even the people that believe players had been using for a long time prior to the "steroid era," but it's comical that some choose to just stick their heads in the sands and claim that players like Bagwell and Palmeiro were clean despite the mountain of evidence that neither were.

I am certainly open to the idea that Bagwell and Palmeiro (or anyone else for that matter) might have used steroids. But I don't know either way. I choose to not run with circumstantial evidence and speculation on who used and what effect that had on their performances.

Could Bagwell have been just another player who ended up well short of HOF qualifications without steroids that he may have used? That is a possibility. It's also possible that his numbers are 100% legit. But I have no way of knowing with any kind of certainty, so I choose to remain agnostic.

Things I can't know I won't use to pass judgment.

[24fps]

I've long wondered what will happen when legal, performance-enhancing elective surgery becomes commonplace. You know it will. 18-year-old kids having artificial, almost indestructable UCLs implanted so they'll never have to have Tommy John. Or some kind of device to keep labrums and rotator cuffs from fraying and tearing. Maybe uses for improved muscle wire, that's used in robotics applications right now.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the trend towards fewer innings by starters is finally reversed by pitchers augmented with artificial body parts.

Do you ban that type of thing? If so, then what about players who're really injured? Do you ban surgeries that have the potential to make them better than before? Who would make that call? What about other devices like Brian Roberts' special contact lenses that enable him to pick up the ball out of the pitcher's hand better?

I think it's within MLB's purview to establish at least some guidelines here. I would hope that the starting point for debate would begin around what is medical necessity and what is truly 'elective'. The notion of a perfectly healthy 18-year-old having a tendon replaced for purely professional reasons is repulsive. So is the appalling notion that the best medical treatment for a properly diagnosed injury should be compromised either by fiat or by prior collective bargaining.

It's a complex issue that will require genuine leadership by unflinching men of vision. Men in the mold of Bud Selig and Don Fehr.

Yeah, that's the ticket...

Seriously, everybody can see the next revolution is sports medicine coming. Does anybody expect a moral dwarf like Bud Selig to be any farther out in front of this issue that he was on PED's?

"Honestly Rep. Waxman, I was just a surprised as everyone else to find out his arm was bionic..."

[Flosman]

Not just the swim teams. An East German set the women's 400M (T&F) record 25 years old ago, and it is still unapproachable by modern athletes.

Don't just hold out the Eastern block teams. The US had PED programs also. They also set a bunch of records. Pretty much any country winning medals during that era had programs developing and using steroids to improve results.

[Arthur_Bryant]

A bit late to this discussion, and I'm not choosing a side, but here's my take on why I think roids and HGH are being treated differently than other forms of cheating or enhancement.

Basically, they're different, or they're perceived differently, because the effects seem so apparent; anyone who has watched baseball for more than 20 years can see that players from the roids era just don't look like the players who came before them. And when we see them doing things that the players who came before them couldn't do, then the obvious conclusion is that the chemicals made it happen.

As Drungo points out, the connection may be more complex than that. But that's what we see, and it makes sense in a simplistic way. Greenies may have just as great an effect, but we can't look on the field and point to players who swallowed a couple of pills earlier in the day. Other forms of cheating--spitballs, stealing signs, etc--are more or less of natural human origin, and doesn't fit into the same category for most people.

is it illogical or hypocritical to be incensed about obvious cheating while giving a pass to the more subtle forms? Probably. But that's the way people are. You can get away with a lot if you're smart enough to fly under the radar. As soon as you flaunt it, though, you're going down.*

I think the chemicals also tap into a set of mind that is somewhat distrustful of science and its creations. It's too much like creating a monster in the laboratory, and we all know how that turns out in the movies. And these guys often look(ed) the part. Toward the end of his career, Bonds looked like his head was ready to explode. McGwire and Bagwell and others looked like they just needed a little green skin tint to play the Incredible Hulk.

*BTW, the increase in the size of football players is even more dramatic, though it is disguised somewhat by the gear. Yet almost nobody makes noise about PEDs in football. I think that's because baseball is held to a different standard, in part because of the uniquely moralistic undertones of the game itself.

[Flosman]

Koufax's arthritic elbow was no more a baseline than Erik Bedard's elbow was pre-Tommy John surgery.

Cortisone is an anti inflammatory medication that has universally recognized medical uses in baseball including Koufax's elbow. Anabolic steroids are indicated for people suffering from testosterone deficiency. Examples of accepted use are for delayed puberty, certain kinds of impotence or body wasting from degenerative diseases such as AIDS. A small MLB sample size to be sure.

If the argument is going to be quicker healing, then what baseball related injuries exist where anabolic steroids are the recommended treatment by reputable doctors? I can find none.

I think you need to define reputable. Anabolic Steroids have been prescribed to improve the results of rehab programs by doctors that are very highly regarded doctors. I personally know of a Doctor that was affiliated with three professional teams that was doing just that in the 80's. These Doctor's job is to get players back on the field at previous or better levels ASAP.

[Arthur_Bryant]

Don't just hold out the Eastern block teams. The US had PED programs also. They also set a bunch of records. Pretty much any country winning medals during that era had programs developing and using steroids to improve results.

Not in the mid to late 70s. Individually, yes. Organized national programs, no. I am as certain of this as I can be.

More I cannot say.

[24fps]

I think you need to define reputable. Anabolic Steroids have been prescribed to improve the results of rehab programs by doctors that are very highly regarded doctors. I personally know of a Doctor that was affiliated with three professional teams that was doing just that in the 80's. These Doctor's job is to get players back on the field at previous or better levels ASAP.

Well who is this doctor and what MLB team is he currently practicing his steroid therapy on? While we're at it, are there any other doctors that you know of who are using anabolic steroids to treat MLB baseball players with the knowledge of both the Commissioner's office and the Player's Association?

[Flosman]

Not in the mid to late 70s. Individually, yes. Organized national programs, no. I am as certain of this as I can be.

More I cannot say.

I don't know when they stopped exactly. I would think sometime in the 60s but that was not really the point. I just did not like the posting that acted like we where innocent and the bad east Germans where the problem. They just continued programs like ours after we stopped. They also went completely over the top with what they did with the programs. The hormone treatments to young children was crazy stuff.

[accinfo]

I'm fine with the people that say they don't care about steroids and even the people that believe players had been using for a long time prior to the "steroid era," but it's comical that some choose to just stick their heads in the sands and claim that players like Bagwell and Palmeiro were clean despite the mountain of evidence that neither were.

Man I can't agree with this anymore. If you don't care they took steroids well that is fine with me. I really don't agree, but I do understand. However the arguments that this didn't happen I can't understand.

I had know idea when I started this thread it would become as epic as it has. LOL

[Tony-OH]

Man I can't agree with this anymore. If you don't care they took steroids well that is fine with me. I really don't agree, but I do understand. However the arguments that this didn't happen I can't understand.

I had know idea when I started this thread it would become as epic as it has. LOL

What I meant was I can understand the folks that say they don't care, but I don't understand those who stick their heads in the sand and act like it never happened. Trust me, unless they open a steroids wing, I don't want these guys in the HoF.

[Tony-OH]

Tony, your "evidence" that Bagwell wasn't clean is pretty flimsy. I'm no lawyer, but I doubt you could make any of that stick in the court of law.

And it never would. I never claimed it was a case that would stand up in any government court unless a witnesses or documents. However, in the court of "Common Sense," Bagwell looks pretty dirty to me. Had he shown any inkling of power in college, the minors, or even in his first few years in the big leagues I'd be more than happy to believe he just "developed." When I see a sudden development of power around a guy who was surrounded by known steroid users I'm going to be skeptical. Apparently, the HoF voters agree because his numbers scream out for the HoF if he wasn't surrounded by understandable suspicion.

[Tony-OH]

I am certainly open to the idea that Bagwell and Palmeiro (or anyone else for that matter) might have used steroids. But I don't know either way. I choose to not run with circumstantial evidence and speculation on who used and what effect that had on their performances.

Could Bagwell have been just another player who ended up well short of HOF qualifications without steroids that he may have used? That is a possibility. It's also possible that his numbers are 100% legit. But I have no way of knowing with any kind of certainty, so I choose to remain agnostic.

Things I can't know I won't use to pass judgment.

Fair enough Jon. I can understand that line of thinking, but call me what you want, but I believe in the theory what looks like a duck, sounds, like a talk, and walks like a duck is probably a duck.

Maybe it's my line if work that allows me to make "conclusions" based off circumstantial "evidence."

As an analyst, you have to make calls one way or the other, and rarely do you have hard facts available. I certainly understand the "won't hold up in a court of law" argument and I agree, the "evidence" available wouldn't, but for me, there is enough information that leads me to be very skeptical and that's enough to take away my support (as if it mattered ).

[crawjo]

So what happens when (inevitably) somebody who is already in the Hall of Fame is found to have used steroids?

How many players who used steroids do you think are now in the Hall of Fame?

[DrungoHazewood]

Had he shown any inkling of power in college...

From the University of Hartford's athletics page: "Bagwell played at the University of Hartford from 1987-89, manning third base for the Hawks. When he left the program, he stood as the Hawks' all-time leader in average (.413), runs batted in (126) and homers (31). He remains atop the Hawks' leaderboard in average and slugging percentage (.713)."

[Tony-OH]

I will say this, IF steroids did not have serious side effects, I would have no problems with them being legal and used throughout sports. Unfortunately, if you allow them, you basically force others to do something potential harmful to their bodies to compete at a high level.