Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[Robbie]

Palmeiro should just keep his mouth shut and stop this BS about him getting a tainted B-12 shot. I don't believe him. Just like Clemens it just shows you are not only a cheat but a liar. He is shocked he only got voted on 11% of the ballots? I have zero respect for him and hope he NEVER gets in the Hall of Fame. I don't care about how everyone was doing it. If these guys just said I did it and shouldn't have and not offer any more details, like a Brian Roberts, then they gain a little respect back.

Brian Roberts said he took steroids once. I find that less likely than Palmerio actually having a tainted b-12 shot, but might just be me. I think they are both liars.

[waroriole]

Right, it was more rhetorical not directed at you.

I think it's going to take awhile, but eventually this crop of pompous self-righteous writers will eventually be replaced by more tolerant sportswriters and then the players that deserve to get in, will.

But right now, they are so focused on keeping the HOF "clean," while completely ignoring all the dirty laundry that is currently hanging on its walls.

Wow, I've never agreed with you on an issue more than I do with this one.:beerchug1:

[Dipper9]

Wow, I've never agreed with you on an issue more than I do with this one.:beerchug1:

Trea's nominating committee would be ...

Trea, Tex, Fielder, and AGon! They would hold tryouts like American Idol! :laughlol:

I'm kidding Trea. I agree with you on this topic as well.

[Tony-OH]

To what degree does the use of PED's distort the records. IMO, in Palmeiro's case, not at all because I don't believe he used them prior to his being tested positive.

Really?

Rafeal Palmeiro was a good player, a Don Mattingly-type guy who hit 8,8,14,26,22 home runs in his first full five seasons. In his first five full season in the majors leagues he hit 78 home runs and SLG .451 while putting up a respectable 128 OPS+.

Then, amazingly in his contract year, in the same Texas clubhouse as Jose Canseco, Juan Gonzales, Ivan Rodriguez and Dean Palmer, he hits 37 home runs?

Over the next 11 "magical" year he hits 433 home runs, SLG .555. with +138 OPS.

Basically he went from a very solid, good ball player, to one of the most elite home run hitters in history. I believe PEDs took him from a Don Mattingly/John Olerud type of #s to Hall of Fame type #s.

He's tested positive, but there's little doubt in my mind he didn't "suddenly" try them after all those years. I think it happened a long time ago and made Palmeiro a lot of money along the way. Was it worth it? Well, he made $83,306,496 over his last 13 years of his career. You can keep me out of the Hall of fame for that kind of dough.

[waroriole]

Really?

Rafeal Palmeiro was a good player, a Don Mattingly-type guy who hit 8,8,14,26,22 home runs in his first full five seasons. In his first five full season in the majors leagues he hit 78 home runs and SLG .451 while putting up a respectable 128 OPS+.

Then, amazingly in his contract year, in the same Texas clubhouse as Jose Canseco, Juan Gonzales, Ivan Rodriguez and Dean Palmer, he hits 37 home runs?

Over the next 11 "magical" year he hits 433 home runs, SLG .555. with +138 OPS.

Basically he went from a very solid, good ball player, to one of the most elite home run hitters in history. I believe PEDs took him from a Don Mattingly/John Olerud type of #s to Hall of Fame type #s.

He's tested positive, but there's little doubt in my mind he didn't "suddenly" try them after all those years. I think it happened a long time ago and made Palmeiro a lot of money along the way. Was it worth it? Well, he made $83,306,496 over his last 13 years of his career. You can keep me out of the Hall of fame for that kind of dough.

Didn't Yastrzemski do the same thing? Some guys develop power later in their careers, and it's not always a result of steroids. Musial didn't start out as much of a power hitter either. He was 28 the first time he hit more than 19 HR. Just take a look at Raffy's sweet swing to see where the power comes from.

[ShaneDawg85]

Really?

Rafeal Palmeiro was a good player, a Don Mattingly-type guy who hit 8,8,14,26,22 home runs in his first full five seasons. In his first five full season in the majors leagues he hit 78 home runs and SLG .451 while putting up a respectable 128 OPS+.

Then, amazingly in his contract year, in the same Texas clubhouse as Jose Canseco, Juan Gonzales, Ivan Rodriguez and Dean Palmer, he hits 37 home runs?

Over the next 11 "magical" year he hits 433 home runs, SLG .555. with +138 OPS.

Basically he went from a very solid, good ball player, to one of the most elite home run hitters in history. I believe PEDs took him from a Don Mattingly/John Olerud type of #s to Hall of Fame type #s.

He's tested positive, but there's little doubt in my mind he didn't "suddenly" try them after all those years. I think it happened a long time ago and made Palmeiro a lot of money along the way. Was it worth it? Well, he made $83,306,496 over his last 13 years of his career. You can keep me out of the Hall of fame for that kind of dough.

Not discrediting anything you've said, but you don't think playing 12 seasons of one's career in two favorable hitting environments, especially the Ballpark in Arlington didn't have some effect? I'm inclined to believe they did:

BPA: 130 HR, 347 RBI, 1.025 OPS

OPACY: 124 HR, 362 RBI, .872 OPS

[TGO]

Didn't Yastrzemski do the same thing? Some guys develop power later in their careers, and it's not always a result of steroids. Musial didn't start out as much of a power hitter either. He was 28 the first time he hit more than 19 HR. Just take a look at Raffy's sweet swing to see where the power comes from.

Yep. I can't say for sure that he wasn't using PEDs at that point of his career, but the power surge can be explained by things other than PEDs. This is a guy who led the league in doubles. Power can, and often does, develop incrementally.

If Markakis hits 30 homers next year and 40 the year after that should we ban him from baseball? What about Delmon Young, Billy Butler, Joe Mauer?

[The Wedge]

If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Or as Jesse the Body Ventura famously said..."Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!"

As for Raffy, I believe his story. I believe that he thought he was simply taking B-12. I also believe that he's a complete moron. How could someone with such a great career do something like this in his final year and basically ruin his entire career? He is one of only 4 men with 3000 hits and 500 homers. The other three are in the Hall, while Raffy will always be known as a cheater.

I believe your story Raffy, and I believe you were screwed over, but its your own damn fault for letting someone inject you without making 100% sure it was not a steroid.

To be fair, Raffy admits fully to the culpability you talk about. His line is pretty much "I can't fully explain how I tested positive, I have a pretty good idea how, but I can't prove or disprove it now, but ultimately I'm to blame for not paying strict attention." He said the same basic on Norris and Davis Tuesday morning.

[Tony-OH]

Didn't Yastrzemski do the same thing? Some guys develop power later in their careers, and it's not always a result of steroids. Musial didn't start out as much of a power hitter either. He was 28 the first time he hit more than 19 HR. Just take a look at Raffy's sweet swing to see where the power comes from.

Yastrzemski jumped up for about four years in his prime where he hit 147 home runs and SLG .554 and a +168 OPS, between ages 27-30. By 31, he was back to his pre peak years self. From 31 to 39, when Palmeiro was hitting 40+ homers every year, Yaz hit 162 homers (18 a year). That's a normal career where a guy peaks from about 27-32 then has a steady decline.

As for Musial, you can't compare his peak with a guy like Palmeiro because clearly Musial was one of the best hitters that ever lived, with a career average .331, .417 OBP, and an amazing 1599 to 696 BB to K ratio. Musial peaked at 27 and held his peak until about 36. That's what true hall of famers do. By the way, the five years before he hit his peak age he hit .341 with a .420 OBP and an incredible 164 OPS+.

[ScottieBaseball]

The only "juiced" year was half of a year and his final year.

Right. And every drunk driver that gets busted swears it's the first time he's EVER done anything like this. Same goes for shoplifters, pedophiles, etc.

I don't buy his "borrowed B-12" story. He was juicing, thought he was beating the system or at least had a way around it, didn't, and got busted.

[Tony-OH]

You are talking about his '93 season with Texas when he was 28 years old and had a .925 OPS, which included 40 doubles and 37 homers.

At age 26, he had a .921 OPS season with 49 doubles, and 26 homers.

It is inaccurate to make the case that a flip-switched in the contract year that drastically changed his level of play.

The numbers clearly speak for the "flipped" switch. Palmeiro was a good hitter. PEDs clearly made his numbers into HoF type numbers. If you want to be naive and believe Palmeiro, despite being around known steroid guys, and despite having an incredible peak from 28 to 38, never used PEDs until he was"accidentally" infected by bad B-12 be my guest. Unfortunately I live in a place called reality, and reality says there's enough evidence, including a failed drug test, that says his number are most likely tainted.

If you believe Don Mattingly and John Olerud belong in the Hallof Fame, then be my guest and put in Rafeal Palmeiro, because that was his true talent level minus the PEDs.

[ShaneDawg85]

The numbers clearly speak for the "slipped" switch. Palmeiro was a good hitter. PEDs clearly made his numbers into HoF type numbers. If you want to be naive and believe Palmeiro, despite being around known steroid guys, and despite having an incredible peak from 28 to 38, never used PEDs until he was"accidentally" infected by bad B-12 be my guest. Unfortunately I live in a place called reality, and reality says there's enough evidence, including a failed drug test, that says his number are most likely tainted.

If you believe Don Mattingly and John Olerud belong in the Hallof Fame, then be my guest and put in Rafeal Palmeiro, because that was his talent level minus the PEDs.

With all due respect, no, they didn't, and there will never be a truly definitive way or proving that they did, so the only way to prove they did. Did Palmeiro get busted? Yes, he did. Did Palmeiro probably use steroids at some other time in his career? Unless he admits to it, or real evidence comes out, we probably won't know, but the answer is likely yes because everybody else was doing what was culturally accepted and not illegal in the game.

You believe Palmeiro wouldn't have been Palmeiro without steroids or PED's. That's your prerogative, and I respect you for it. Based on where he played, the era he played in, his swing and other attributes, I strongly disagree.

[bird watcher]

I believe him.

I don't care how naive I may sound by saying that. I am also one who believes that steroids were more rampant among players than we care to admit but in this case, I believe him.

[Dipper9]

The numbers clearly speak for the "flipped" switch. Palmeiro was a good hitter. PEDs clearly made his numbers into HoF type numbers. If you want to be naive and believe Palmeiro, despite being around known steroid guys, and despite having an incredible peak from 28 to 38, never used PEDs until he was"accidentally" infected by bad B-12 be my guest. Unfortunately I live in a place called reality, and reality says there's enough evidence, including a failed drug test, that says his number are most likely tainted.

If you believe Don Mattingly and John Olerud belong in the Hallof Fame, then be my guest and put in Rafeal Palmeiro, because that was his true talent level minus the PEDs.

So then what are your feelings on the Markakis question that was asked? If he "puts it all together" this year and becomes the 25-30 homer guy with 40-50 doubles and 100+ RBI's, will it be a case of he finally is putting it together and has some protection in the lineup, or will it be another proverbial "flipped switch?"

I'm not saying that Raffy didn't do roids, I'm more concerned about generalizing comments for those who "flip switches" and how that would compare to Nick and Jones and Wieters when, and if, they ever put it together.

[Tony-OH]

As much as I would like to believe Palmerio, he failed the drug test and at a minimum I believe his numbers from 2005 should be removed from his record. If he never gains entry to the HOF because of the failed test, he has to live with that.

That is a separate argument to the point you made. You argued that his numbers drastically increased over anything he had previously done in a contract year - when the stats clearly show he had posted equal numbers two years prior. Your argument is poor at best.

Ok, what if he started two years before? I could buy his jump in power around the age of 26-28 due to natural progression and the peak years situation, but the fact that he kept that peak until 38-years old is a big problem for me. Palmeiro did have a nice swing, and he hit a lot of doubles which did suggest he had more power, but one of the reasons the Cubs traded him was because of his lack of power for a first baseman.

I firmly believe Palmeiro was going to be a very good player regardless of PED use,but also firmly believe his numbers, including his extraordinarily long peak, certainly suggest he was PED user before his failed drug test.

It's a whole separate issue as to whether you believe guys during this ERA belong in the HoF or not, but I think there's more than just circumstantial evidence that Palmeiro was dirty long before it was proven.