Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[Frobby]

The only thing that bothers me about keeping certain guys out, is that you know there must be quite a few other guys who used steroids but who were lucky enough not to get caught. Just like only a fraction of drunk drivers get pulled over for drunk driving.

As to Raffy, I totally believed him when he testified before Congress. He had me hook, line and sinker. Now, imagine you've been subpoenaed by Congress, you've testified under oath, etc., and now someone wants to stick a needle in your butt without a doctors's supervision. You are going to do that? Come on.

[Tony-OH]

So then what are your feelings on the Markakis question that was asked? If he "puts it all together" this year and becomes the 25-30 homer guy with 40-50 doubles and 100+ RBI's, will it be a case of he finally is putting it together and has some protection in the lineup, or will it be another proverbial "flipped switch?"

I'm not saying that Raffy didn't do roids, I'm more concerned about generalizing comments for those who "flip switches" and how that would compare to Nick and Jones and Wieters when, and if, they ever put it together.

If Markakis suddenly becomes a 40+ home runs guy and keeps that peak until he's 38-years old then yes, I would have some serious suspicions.

[Tony-OH]

With all due respect, no, they didn't, and there will never be a truly definitive way or proving that they did, so the only way to prove they did. Did Palmeiro get busted? Yes, he did. Did Palmeiro probably use steroids at some other time in his career? Unless he admits to it, or real evidence comes out, we probably won't know, but the answer is likely yes because everybody else was doing what was culturally accepted and not illegal in the game.

You believe Palmeiro wouldn't have been Palmeiro without steroids or PED's. That's your prerogative, and I respect you for it. Based on where he played, the era he played in, his swing and other attributes, I strongly disagree.

This I agree with, which is why you have to look at all the evidence. Palmiero's length of peak goes against the grain of normal projections, does it not? He was teammates with known steroid users and Canseco (say what you want about him but he's been right on the money about steroids) said he was a user. He failed a drug test. That's three strikes in my book.

By the way, I'm curious, what's your opinion (and others) of Jeff Bagwell?

[The Wedge]

The only thing that bothers me about keeping certain guys out, is that you know there must be quite a few other guys who used steroids but who were lucky enough not to get caught. Just like only a fraction of drunk drivers get pulled over for drunk driving.

As to Raffy, I totally believed him when he testified before Congress. He had me hook, line and sinker. Now, imagine you've been subpoenaed by Congress, you've testified under oath, etc., and now someone wants to stick a needle in your butt without a doctors's supervision. You are going to do that? Come on.

The obvious argument to that is if he had ALWAYS gotten straight B-12 or other benign injections (or tainted with or without his knowledge for that matter) and nothing bad had happened, why would he stop?

[Nigel Tufnel]

Does anybody think Palmeiro might have struggled initially in HOF voting, even without the positive test? I think he may have already been in line to be the test case for guys with great career totals, but not a high enough peak.

Ironically, without the positive test the steroid era probably would have helped him for the HOF. Before that, I think it was widely assumed that he was clean, so he could have gotten in as the poster child for everything that was right about the game.

[Moose Milligan]

The only thing that bothers me about keeping certain guys out, is that you know there must be quite a few other guys who used steroids but who were lucky enough not to get caught. Just like only a fraction of drunk drivers get pulled over for drunk driving.

As to Raffy, I totally believed him when he testified before Congress. He had me hook, line and sinker. Now, imagine you've been subpoenaed by Congress, you've testified under oath, etc., and now someone wants to stick a needle in your butt without a doctors's supervision. You are going to do that? Come on.

Perhaps he thought (hey, athletes can be pretty dumb) that since he testified before Congress that no one would test him immediately after?

[TGO]

This I agree with, which is why you have to look at all the evidence. Palmiero's length of peak goes against the grain of normal projections, does it not? He was teammates with known steroid users and Canseco (say what you want about him but he's been right on the money about steroids) said he was a user. He failed a drug test. That's three strikes in my book.

By the way, I'm curious, what's your opinion (and others) of Jeff Bagwell?

Bagwell's peak started a few years earlier, 25 or 26 I believe, so I am inclined to believe he was not a habitual PED user (note that I would believe just about anyone tried steroids or HGH at some point to help get over an injury, similar to what Pettitte and Roberts claim they did).

[The Wedge]

Does anybody think Palmeiro might have struggled initially in HOF voting, even without the positive test? I think he may have already been in line to be the test case for guys with great career totals, but not a high enough peak.

Ironically, without the positive test the steroid era probably would have helped him for the HOF. Before that, I think it was widely assumed that he was clean, so he could have gotten in as the poster child for everything that was right about the game.

At the time of his joining it, he was only the fourth member of the 3000-500 club. That's about as elite as you can get, and people were saying he was pretty much a first ballet HoF lock. Then, positive test, Bob's your uncle, here we are.

[TGO]

At the time of his joining it, he was only the fourth member of the 3000-500 club. That's about as elite as you can get, and people were saying he was pretty much a first ballet HoF lock. Then, positive test, Bob's your uncle, here we are.

Before getting to 3000 though he was definitely being looked at as a guy who might not make it despite 500 homeruns by the "It's the Hall of FAME" people. He was viewed as a "compiler." Reaching 3000 hits fixed some of that but I think there were still a few who viewed him that way, maybe even enough to make him not a first ballot guy.

[Mark Carver]

Lets go back to the story that he was telling the truth. So what if it is the truth. Raffy ran out of B12 and asked a team mate for some. However this team mate had special B12 (which we now know Miggy was using so...)

If he's telling the truth is he still outed? Yea he tested positive... but his stats are clean. The only "juiced" year was half of a year and his final year. Does he still get black listed because of this? Again we are assuming he told the truth and that is what happened.

Do you punish someone for 1 stupid mistake that has 0 effect on the topic in hand (his career stats)?

If Palmeiro really wanted a source for B12, he goes to a teammate and have has wife stick it in his butt?

[The Wedge]

Before getting to 3000 though he was definitely being looked at as a guy who might not make it despite 500 homeruns by the "It's the Hall of FAME" people. He was viewed as a "compiler." Reaching 3000 hits fixed some of that but I think there were still a few who viewed him that way, maybe even enough to make him not a first ballot guy.

Perhaps, but even if he was a "compiler" he compiled himself in to a very very exclusive club of numbers. Which almost by definition removes the compiler tag from him. Or if it doesn't elevates the tag in to a special zone also HoF worthy, the most successful compiler to date.

[The Wedge]

If Palmeiro really wanted a source for B12, you go to a teammate and have has wife stick it in his butt?

Again, the counter argument (given that Palmeiro has readily admitted his diligence or lack thereof took everything from him) would be that if he done it that way before, why would he stop?

[CrimsonTribe]

I've had lots of very drawn out, evidence-based debates with people about steroids and baseball for years and years, but it fails every time against the tidal wave of moralistic posturing that people seem to prefer. I've grown tired of it and I have absolutely no sympathy or patience for people who feel the way you do about steroid usage in baseball.

I have no idea why you'd choose to dump all over Palmeiro for expressing normal human emotions--like disappointment--on what has to have been a difficult day for him. But none of that matters because you see things in very black and white terms. It's ahistorical and endlessly stupid.

This guy wins.

[Frobby]

Again, the counter argument (given that Palmeiro has readily admitted his diligence or lack thereof took everything from him) would be that if he done it that way before, why would he stop?

That's not how Raffy explained it. He was not a regular B-12 user. He said Miggy suggested it to him in 2005 when he was feeling tired.

If you want to read the definitive Congressional report on this (H.Rpt. 109-310), you can find it here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house/house07cr109.html

[The Wedge]

Ah, I misunderstood, then. Though since I'm merely playing devil's advocate, its not like that bothers me.