Palmeiro just digging his grave deeper

[ShaneDawg85]

This I agree with, which is why you have to look at all the evidence. Palmiero's length of peak goes against the grain of normal projections, does it not? He was teammates with known steroid users and Canseco (say what you want about him but he's been right on the money about steroids) said he was a user. He failed a drug test. That's three strikes in my book.

By the way, I'm curious, what's your opinion (and others) of Jeff Bagwell?

Bagwell is a curious case, if for no other reason than the fact he's never been outed, so far as I know, by Canesco or Caminiti, who played with Bagwell. I don't really buy the mysterious boom from Palmeiro, but even if I did I don't really see that as being the case with Bagwell. All the major stats progressed pretty naturally from his rookie season to his 1994 MVP season, and even if it looked unnatural it would have been a little different had he played more than 142 games in 1993. His home runs, RBI's, and OPS all increased from 1991-1994, and they did so at an age where I think most people would say, "That makes sense." Who knows how inflated they would have been had the strike not happened, but even still, I think it makes more sense than say Palmeiro, even though I'm not that suspicious with Palmeiro.

By and large he was a pretty healthy guy, so there wasn't any suspicious breakdown like with other players who were doing the stuff (David Segui). Maybe Bagwell did something, but if he did we've never heard much suspicion about it. I believe he'll be in the Hall, because he deserves it, and eventually the genius writers will realize that. But unless he comes forth and says it I don't know if we'll ever really know if he did do something.

[BrunoCherrytown]

This has been a topic I've flipped on a few times.

My personal thought is that just about everybody would take steroids if it meant the difference between being a Double A "never was" and a Mark McGwire.

Or even a minimum a year salary player versus a $5 million player.

That's just human nature. I'm not sure it's even a morality question because you are talking the morality of a game. Not something that is all that important in the grand scheme of things.

From that viewpoint what is of higher morality, making enough money to provide for your family if you came from some destitute town in the Dominican Republic or saying well the rules of the game say i can't do it so sorry mom, we gotta live in a shack forever?

I'd take the needle and never look back.

Now that's the extreme case. I bet we can all accept that one. What if you are say a rich kid who just wants to be better than you are out of ego or the drive to succeed at any cost? Barry Bonds perfect example.

He was Hall of Fame before. He didn't exactly suffer as a kid with his dad as a pro. He saw McGwire and Sosa getting the love and wanted to be better than them at the one mainstream stat he wasn't.

The morality of that is a little less defined. Because then it's worth considering whether his/McGwire's/Clemens' choice impacted say a kid's decision to use it in high school which is undoubtedly bad for the body.

But at the end of the day it's still a matter of cheating at a game which the consequences of are not important in the big picture. And these guys aren't the kids' parents. So who has the right to be the morality judge on that.

We will never rid the game of cheating. Look at cycling. They are all cheaters. Lance Armstrong with them. At this point the evidence against Lance is stacking up very heavily and then you find every other top biker doing it too. So even if you ignore the evidence how can it be assumed he wasn't a cheat?

I don't really view Armstrong any less.

Cyclists are cheating so much it's probably a matter of about 15 hours before one gets found having used bionic robotic legs and some other biker's chemists found a way to harness the power of moon rocks.

And their drug testing program is infinitely better than MLB.

I used to think it was "if you get caught you pay the price with the Hall of Fame for taking the risk"...Now I'm more of the mind that in most cases it's "I took steroids not only to play better but to keep up with everybody else, because it's a matter of millions and millions of dollars."

There was just too much money on the line not too.

And the only things you are hurting directly is the integrity of the game and your health. And a game is just a game. Regardless if we watch it on T.V. or not. As for health, the amount of players and their salaries make it a hard case to argue that their health affects the overall economy as say childhood obesity and the massive rise in recent years in personal bankruptcy due to health costs.

So it's a personal issue of health. They aren't hurting society in general or anybody else directly. So I don't really add morality into that either.

Make the penalties harsher sure because we have harsh penalties for lots of rules in the game. But you could really stretch that morality to lots of issues.

Say a pitcher who constantly throws at players' heads. I mean that could literally kill somebody. That's a direct morality issue. And it affects the health of another person. Do we not put Randy Johnson in the Hall of Fame for his wilder days?

It's not cheating. You can get thrown out of the game and punished. But is it morally right to throw a 95+ MPH projectile at somebody's head who is wearing a plastic helmet?

That is intentional whereas hitting a line drive into a pitcher is not.

So we can't make moral distinctions between the broke, third world players who used steroids to basically provide a survivable income which Tejada and Sosa could fall into that category and the more well off players who took them just to get even better say McGwire, Bonds, Clemens'.

I hate to say it but I think they should be inducted based on their stats. This is a recent change of opinion.

Society accepted this steroid abuse it wasn't just MLB. It's not like we weren't kind of all assuming it during the power frenzy of those years.

If Cal Ripken starting belting 60 homeruns a year would we really have been too harsh on him? Honestly?

I think Palmeiro warrants induction. I even think somebody who absolutely never would've made it in w/out roids like McGwire should too.

I don't think you can use selective judgement in these cases because personal biases shouldn't be used. If you are of the mind that no steroid players should be in, than that's a legit opinion. Easy to agree with.

If you are of the mind that some should, others shouldn't and then you rely on some sort of flexible stat criteria such as homeruns or batting average as your measuring factor, I think that is just too susceptible for personal bias and that in fact hurts the integrity of the Hall just as much as letting all steroid players in.

We can talk about scientific proof, but one week HGH is the beat all savior of anti-aging. Just last week I think a new study came out that refuted that entirely. There's not doubt steroids improve strength and performance, but if we are going to try to decide how it becomes too susceptible to opinion.

Does it help your fastball more than your homerun swing? If for example, you like Clemens but not McGwire are you considering that?

So either you let none of them in or you don't count steroids as a factor at all would be my take. And I'd choose now after thinking about it to not take Steroids into account and let the career speak.

[Tony-OH]

If Palmeiro really wanted a source for B12, he goes to a teammate and have has wife stick it in his butt?

My wife gets B-12 shots and like most people, she goes to a doctor to get it. The B-12 thing is about the lamest cover story around..well, at least next to the lady who claimed she hired a hitman to "hit" her husband, not kill him.

[Moose Milligan]

This I agree with, which is why you have to look at all the evidence. Palmiero's length of peak goes against the grain of normal projections, does it not? He was teammates with known steroid users and Canseco (say what you want about him but he's been right on the money about steroids) said he was a user. He failed a drug test. That's three strikes in my book.

By the way, I'm curious, what's your opinion (and others) of Jeff Bagwell?

By the way, I'm curious, what's your opinion (and others) of Jeff Bagwell?

I think it's a load of crap...IIRC, the first time someone with no known ties to PED's has been held out of the HoF due to what his peers did.

Yes, Bagwell was a big dude, yes, he hit a lot of homers...doesn't mean he juiced. I think it's pretty unfair that he got held out because of guilt by association of his peers.

[MikeAD]

I still can't comprehend the rage over 'roids. I often think the best thing for Baseball would be if one of the the holy good guys got busted or it came out that some combination of guys like Ripken, Maddux, Puckett, etc. I think if that ever happens all of the angry mobbing would have to stop.

Palmeiro deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, he was a great player. If you think his numbers and career don't merit him being a first balloter, well I am fine with that, but if you think his numbers and career don't merit a plaque at all, then I have a ton of questions.

[MikeAD]

I think it's a load of crap...IIRC, the first time someone with no known ties to PED's has been held out of the HoF due to what his peers did.

Yes, Bagwell was a big dude, yes, he hit a lot of homers...doesn't mean he juiced. I think it's pretty unfair that he got held out because of guilt by association of his peers.

There was really no testing though. If we only look at people who tested positive, then theres too few people to hate on. If you are going to have a policy of excluding anyone who tested positive, then where to you draw the line. Do people who you suspect took steroids have to wait five years, while people who you might just think took them but theres no wide spread suspicion have to wait 2 years. Maybe there will be a formula for big guys who had teammates/friends busted.

[Tony-OH]

I think it's a load of crap...IIRC, the first time someone with no known ties to PED's has been held out of the HoF due to what his peers did.

Yes, Bagwell was a big dude, yes, he hit a lot of homers...doesn't mean he juiced. I think it's pretty unfair that he got held out because of guilt by association of his peers.

He does have some "ties" to PEDs. He was teammates with Ken Caminiti. He also was a guy who was drafted in the third round out of college because there were questions about his lack of power. He then went into the minors and hit 8 home runs in 859 minor league PAs.

He then hit 15, 18 and 20 home runs his first three years in the league then WHAMO, Babe Ruth time. Over the next ten years hit hit 366 homeruns, SLG .574 and put up a 156+ OPS.

Now, like Palmeiro, Bagwell was shaping up to be a good player, but his jump in power to an elite power hitter when scouts had questioned his power projection, his lack of home runs in his minor league and early major league career suggests there was something more than just normal peak year jumps.

Now, scouts can be wrong on guys, no doubt, and Bagewell did have the plate discipline that suggested he might improve his power numbers, but we also have some pretty incriminating before and after pictures of Bagewell.

Now may he hit the weights hard and become a great power hitter, but why was his peak so long? Hmmmm... :scratchchinhmm:

Either way, there is too much circumstantial evidence to ignore it unless of course you are one of the people that just say "let them all in."

Even though he doesn't have the failed drug test like Palmeiro, I think they sit firmly in the same boat. Either you let them both in or keep them both out.

[O's84]

Okay, so heres my question. If Palmeiro did roids for a good portion of his career why would he take something that was easily detectable as the testing for roids had started recently?

[waroriole]

He does have some "ties" to PEDs. He was teammates with Ken Caminiti. He also was a guy who was drafted in the third round out of college because there were questions about his lack of power. He then went into the minors and hit 8 home runs in 859 minor league PAs.

He then hit 15, 18 and 20 home runs his first three years in the league then WHAMO, Babe Ruth time. Over the next ten years hit hit 366 homeruns, SLG .574 and put up a 156+ OPS.

Now, like Palmeiro, Bagwell was shaping up to be a good player, but his jump in power to an elite power hitter when scouts had questioned his power projection, his lack of home runs in his minor league and early major league career suggests there was something more than just normal peak year jumps.

Now, scouts can be wrong on guys, no doubt, and Bagewell did have the plate discipline that suggested he might improve his power numbers, but we also have some pretty incriminating before and after pictures of Bagewell.

Now may he hit the weights hard and become a great power hitter, but why was his peak so long? Hmmmm... :scratchchinhmm:

Either way, there is too much circumstantial evidence to ignore it unless of course you are one of the people that just say "let them all in."

Even though he doesn't have the failed drug test like Palmeiro, I think they sit firmly in the same boat. Either you let them both in or keep them both out.

With all due respect, that is absolutely not a tie to PED's. How many people were teammates with Caminiti and Canseco? Are we to assume that anyone who didn't hit the peak of their power right away are steroid users? That is certainly not enough circumstantial "evidence" to convict anyone of steroid use. All you have are baseless assumptions (with Bagwell) and using that to keep a guy out of the Hall of Fame reeks of self-righteousness.

[ShaneDawg85]

He does have some "ties" to PEDs. He was teammates with Ken Caminiti. He also was a guy who was drafted in the third round out of college because there were questions about his lack of power. He then went into the minors and hit 8 home runs in 859 minor league PAs.

He then hit 15, 18 and 20 home runs his first three years in the league then WHAMO, Babe Ruth time. Over the next ten years hit hit 366 homeruns, SLG .574 and put up a 156+ OPS.

Now, like Palmeiro, Bagwell was shaping up to be a good player, but his jump in power to an elite power hitter when scouts had questioned his power projection, his lack of home runs in his minor league and early major league career suggests there was something more than just normal peak year jumps.

Now, scouts can be wrong on guys, no doubt, and Bagewell did have the plate discipline that suggested he might improve his power numbers, but we also have some pretty incriminating before and after pictures of Bagewell.

Now may he hit the weights hard and become a great power hitter, but why was his peak so long? Hmmmm... :scratchchinhmm:

Either way, there is too much circumstantial evidence to ignore it unless of course you are one of the people that just say "let them all in."

Even though he doesn't have the failed drug test like Palmeiro, I think they sit firmly in the same boat. Either you let them both in or keep them both out.

So I guess then Tony Gwynn was a user? I mean, he was a teammate of Caminiti, and he did break down a lot in his career.

I'm kidding really, but just because he was a teammate of a user is very circumstantial evidence. Not only that, but Caminiti stated that he won the MVP award in 1996 from doing steroids, which can in San Diego. His numbers in Houston were almost Brian Roberts esque:

1987-1994: 9 HR, 59 RBI, .705 OPS, 98 OPS+

By the time he came back to Houston Bagwell was already well established as an offensive force, so if anything the reverse argument could be that Bagwell, assuming he did anything, turned Caminiti onto steroids. I don't buy that one either. Maybe Caminiti was doing steroids the whole time and just flat out sucked, it's perfectly possible. But just because Bagwell was teammates with the guy doesn't really mean a whole lot, especially when you consider how mediocre Caminiti was during much of that same time period.

[TGO]

With all due respect, that is absolutely not a tie to PED's. How many people were teammates with Caminiti and Canseco? Are we to assume that anyone who didn't hit the peak of their power right away are steroid users? That is certainly not enough circumstantial "evidence" to convict anyone of steroid use. All you have are baseless assumptions (with Bagwell) and using that to keep a guy out of the Hall of Fame reeks of self-righteousness.

I agree. Those two guys played for 11 different franchises. If you start adding in other guys like Clemens, McGwire, etc, eventually everyone who ever played going back to 1980 will be guilty by association.

Moreover, I absolutely don't buy the "look at the photos" argument. Bagwell was ripped at 24 or whenever he debuted. He bulked up over the years. Happens to anyone lifts weights religiously as they age.

[Tony-OH]

With all due respect, that is absolutely not a tie to PED's. How many people were teammates with Caminiti and Canseco? Are we to assume that anyone who didn't hit the peak of their power right away are steroid users? That is certainly not enough circumstantial "evidence" to convict anyone of steroid use. All you have are baseless assumptions (with Bagwell) and using that to keep a guy out of the Hall of Fame reeks of self-righteousness.

What you consider baseless assumptions I say are statistical evidence along with personal association with known steroid users. Another former Bagwell teammate was Jason Grimsley, an admitted HGH and steroid user after his house was raided by government officials. Numerous other former teammates of Bagwell were named in the Mitchell Report. And let's not forget former Bagwell teammates Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens.

Stop with all the self-righteous crap though. I'm not making a call on whether it was right or not morally, I'm just saying that the guy hit a lot of home runs for a guy who's power was considered his only missing tool as a hitter when drafted, developed and why the Red Sox traded him.

Now if you don't feel the PEDs effected him enough to stop him from being a HoFer is up to each individual, but to claim outrage that someone would link him to PEDs is naive at best.

[Tony-OH]

So I guess then Tony Gwynn was a user? I mean, he was a teammate of Caminiti, and he did break down a lot in his career.

Yes, that's totally what I was saying. Way to use your reading comprehension. :rolleyestf:

[ShaneDawg85]

Yes, that's totally what I was saying. Way to use your reading comprehension. :rolleyestf:

Clearly you missed the words "I'm kidding, really" right below that statement.

[Sports Guy]

He should be in the HOF. I hope he makes it. He is clearly deserving.