CHIP
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23 hours ago, luismatos4prez said:
I like Handley, too. But a catcher hasn't been chosen in the Rule 5 Draft since 2016 and it seems unlikely a catcher who has never even caught at AAA would be chosen.
My understanding of the Rule 5 draft is an MLB team can take anyone not already on a MLB 40 man roster as long as that club has not filled out their 40 man roster. But the AAA version of the draft is the same. They can take anyone that is not on a 40 man MLB or 38 man AAA roster as long as they have less than 38 on their roster. And in only costs about $25K vs. $100K to get them. So Handley likely will wind up on AAA before the Rule 5. Cumberland is 27 and Roberts just turned 26. Handley just turned 24.
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Here is a question from the 'pro Maverick' gallery... last year I wrote about getting him out of Aberdeen for his numbers to start taking off. We are 20 weeks into the season and his numbers have been getting better and better since his 1 for 25 start. Here is the question... what do the Orioles do from here? How do the O's develop a 'back up' catcher for Rutschman or is it time to start trading the assets (if there are any worth trading)?
Taylor and Bemboom were both signed right before and during Spring Training and are 32 years old. Then you have Nottingham (27) who has gone thru hot and cold streaks in Norfolk but overall seems to be in a rough patch in June going 5-45 so far dropping his average to 0.216. Cumberland (turns 27 this month) had his hamstring/ankle injury and is rehabbing, but he has been with the Orioles 4 years now since the trade with the Braves in 2018. Roberts turned 26 today. He has hit well at Bowie in April and June but had a rough May. Overall he is still hanging around his .250 career average as a bat first catcher. He has a strong arm, which showed with Bowie played him in the OF to get more ABs while Handley caught.
Handley is still just a young 24. His 5-9 190lb label on MiLB seems like it never changed from 2021 when he came in light at Aberdeen. The Driveline videos of him prior to Spring Training sure look like he put on some good weight there in the offseason which also matches up with his improved power numbers. As mentioned in the post and others... his offense has 'clicked'. Besides his AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS constantly improving... his Walk rate has continued to rise while is K rate is around 17%. The past two months he BB/K ratio is about 1:1...
Ramon Rodriguez is only 23-1/2 and is covering in AA while Roberts is in AAA this week. The Orioles did send Rodriquez to the Arizona Fall league last year but then put him back at A+ Aberdeen. He is hitting well enough at A+ to justify a move to AA if a AA were to move up to AAA
Pavolony and Willems are working their way through A+ and A- but seem like they aren't ready to move up both hitting aroung .170 +/- 10pts.
So now with Adley on the MLB club, what do the O's do to develop his back up or improve the system thru trade(s)? Chirinos is a good mentor and popular in the clubhouse by all accounts... and the O's still don't seem to 'need' to win right now. So unlikely for O's to give Nottingham a shot at MLB from AAA. Nottingham was available for the O's... Bemboom was available... Taylor was available. But are any of these 3 worth promoting to 40 man and trimming Chirinos and then having to cut come Rule5 draft protection time?
So... are any of our catcher's trade bait? Roberts Rule5 year was 2021. Handley is Rule5 this year. Are either good enough to get taken by another club? Are either of these guys going to get a real (more than 1 series shot) in AAA this year? AA ends 9/18/22. AAA ends 9/28/22. Not much time for 1 or 2 weeks to see what is left at the end of the year. Who is most valuable as trade piece come the trade deadline? Do the O's give Roberts or Handley a shot (should they both clear trade deadline) in the AFL this year? Do they protect either from the Major or Minor league rule5 draft in December?
There are almost 10 weeks in (59 games) with 13 weeks (79 games) to go. So not quite to the half way point... but it seems our best offensive catchers are working their way thru splitting time in AA. Eventually they need to get real opportunities at AAA to see what there is to see.
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On 5/19/2022 at 7:08 AM, Sports Guy said:
Of those, Adley, Stowers, Rom and GRod are the obvious adds. Peek, Ortiz and Stallings are potentials. Brnovich would have been but after this TJ surgery, I tend to doubt it. Handley is possible if he starts to hit.
Starting this off as a big Stanford Fan and thus fan of Stowers, Daschbach, and Handley. Biased in favor of Handley especially with time at Stanford and my son being a big follower of his.
We were looking at the Individual Statistics on the Bowie page today and a few things got our attention... Handley started the year 1-25 or 0.040 in his first 8 games over 2.5 weeks. Now the last 30 days he is slashing .302/.380/.442 in 13G/43AB w/ 5 BB/5K. The last 15 days he is slashing .370/.419/.556 in 8G/27AB w/ 3BB/2K. Last 7 days slashing .462/.500/.769 in 4G/13AB w/ 2BB/1K (He DH'd two games at end of last series).
36 games into the season. Henderson and Westburg have played in 36 of 37 games and have batted in top 4 getting them 160 and 159 plate appearances. Then Ortiz (33/140), Haskin (32/136) and Watson 33/130). With Henderson, Westburg, and Haskins being picked in the top early rounds (picks 42, 30, and 39 respectively) their G/PA are easily justified. Handley has the LEAST amount of Plate Appearances of the position players currently with Baysox at only 80.
Handley seems to be doing what he can after not getting any playing time in Spring Training as I believe he was the "Just in Case" player on the Major league roster all spring training and not getting any 'real' minor league games. Now he is batting the bottom of the line up every other day but this past weekend.
So he has started to hit but will he be given the time to continue to hit?
Meanwhile... Adley has gotten his deserved call up to play with Chirinos (38) resulting in Bemboom (32) being DFA'd while at AAA Cumberland (27) is Injured (hammy or ankle?) has had a couple 3 hit games to boost his average this year and has thrown out 4 of 16: Nottingham (27) had a good April after not making the MLB club but has cooled in May with a nice 3 hit performance last game bumping his numbers up 43 pts to 0.283 and throwing out 2 of 7. Leaving 32 year old Beau Taylor a late Spring training addition batting 0.115 in 26 AAA ABs while spending most of his time on the Travel Squad. He was 1-7 (.143) in April and so far 2-19 (.105) in May and has yet to throw out a runner.
As the limited pick offs to first base and pitch clock continue to impact the stolen bases and caught stealing, Handley's defense seems to be where it should be. My son said he hasn't had a chance to even throw down on 1/2 of the stolen bases against him.
Our lingering questions are will Handley get enough time to get the attention of other teams for the Minor League Rule 5 draft? Will the Orioles move him to AAA at the end of the season (or sooner). Will they trade him? Angels seem like they could use the depth and potential without a standout catcher in their system like Rutschman.
Should be interesting and we will keep rooting for him. I explain to my son that Minor League baseball is a grind and it takes a lot of internal fortitude to continue to chase the dream when things don't get challenging.
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On 11/22/2021 at 2:52 PM, Tony-OH said:
Handley is what he was advertised defensively but he can't hit. Probably the best overall defender at catcher in the system, better than Rutschman especially throwing, but he's been pretty much a zero at the plate.
Daschbach is a bit of stiff power guy for me. More muscle power than quick bat, he did show nice power at Bowie but it came at a price. Not sure he's going to be able to show a consistent enough stick for 1B and he's Mancini like outfielder.
I think you are giving Maverick Handley the short end of the stick... Pun intended. I have followed him (and Adley) since there time in the Pac12. Defensively, Maverick's defense will help win more games than Adley's. Offensively, without a doubt, Adley has the gifts for his bat to help win more games. If statistics are true, Aberdeen was the LAST PLACE ballpark for batting average (but had a high HR rate) since they remodeled the field and lights before this season. It had more to do with than just the worst hitting coach (1st one fired at end of season)
Here is an example:
Gunnar Henderson played at 3 levels and every day. Of his 65 games played for Aberdeen, 29 were away and 36 were at home. Gunnar hit 0.192 at home and 0.271 on the road. His OPS was 0.718 at home and 0.835 on the road.
Maverick played 70 games for Aberdeen. 27 home and 33 away. He hit 0.125 at home and 0.261 away. His OPS was only 0.446 at home but 0.835 away.
With Adley starting at AA before moving to AAA, and then Handley getting injured, it appears he never got the chance to move up.
While his average didn't change much overall, his OBP, SLG, OPS all went up while his SO rate went down.
Tells me... pegging his bat as dead may be a bit premature. If he continues to put the work in at Driveline out in Kent, WA (there is a good blog from them on what he did last offseason) and gets stronger, heals up, and doesn't get stuck back in Aberdeen, he may be able to get the reps in and make it to AAA before end of 2022.
I think he will continue to improve, I just don't know if the Orioles will make him a Rule 5 protected player in 2022... or even what that will be like after the new CBA. His defense can definitely play at the MLB level... but he has to get his reps in and work his way up.
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3 hours ago, Frobby said:
In his last 8 games covering 34 PA, Aberdeen catcher Maverick Handley has hit .464/.529/.786 with 2 homers and 16 RBI. In the process he’s raised his OPS from .605 to .738.
The twist here is that the 8 game hot streak was interrupted by 18 days after game 5 of the streak, as Handley was hurt. He’s returned and picked up exactly where he left off.
He’s also throwing out 43% of base runners. If he can hit a little, he stands a good chance of having a nice major league career.
If I noticed anything during the two weeks Handley was on the IL was the difference in the game flow and comfort of the pitchers. Loeprich and Peek didn't look this comfortable previously at A+.
At this point in the season... comparing his May/June to his July/August it is like two different seasons.
Split Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS May ABD 15 49 8 11 3 1 0 5 8 0 13 7 1 0.224 0.367 0.327 0.693 June ABD 17 57 5 9 3 0 2 9 7 0 22 4 0 0.158 0.250 0.316 0.566 May + June 32 106 13 20 6 1 2 14 15 0 35 11 1 0.189 0.289 0.321 0.610 July ABD 10 35 5 11 4 0 1 14 3 0 12 0 0 0.314 0.385 0.514 0.899 August ABD 3 10 2 5 0 0 1 7 2 0 4 1 0 0.500 0.538 0.800 1.338 July + August 13 45 7 16 4 0 2 21 5 0 16 1 0 0.356 0.420 0.578 0.998 Any other team would have moved the 23 year old catcher up to AA by now. However, the Orioles keep finding something for Rutschman to refine at AA which blocks Handley from the move. Orioles have moved Roberts to AA, AAA, and MLB Away Scout team, Hudgins is now the bouncer up at AAA, Rodriguez has bounced from A- to A+ to AA back to A+. All to be back ups. Has to be frustrating for those guys as well.
WHEN WHEN WHEN will they move Adley? Cumberland's AVG has dropped every month: May 0.254: June 0.194: July 0.161: August 0.083
Time to move him to DH/1B and get Adley his time at C and ABs at AAA and move Handley up to AA.
December 2022 is coming in 16 months. Will Handley continue to stay healthy and perform? Will the Orioles be able to hang onto him past 12/2022 Rule 5 if they procrastinate with their entire system?
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On 7/26/2021 at 10:42 AM, Aristotelian said:
Do we have any idea how his numbers split when catching in college?
Baseball Reference has his games split between C and 1B in 2017, 2018, and 2019. But they and the Pac-12 don't break up the hitting. I did find this game interesting as it faced off against Stanford and Stowers/Handley/Daschbach. https://stats.pac-12.com/sports/bsb/2018-19/boxscores/20190517_i1g0.xml
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2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:
The Orioles are not giving out information on player injuries. They are being treated as state secrets for some reason. Its silly.
Back to Pavolony though, I could see him going to Delmarva pretty quickly because his defense and current injury situation at the catcher's position within the organization.
From the Todd Karpovich article quoting Cannon, "As for Cannon, he is still nursing a hamstring injury from earlier this month against Lynchburg. He heard a pop as he was running for first base and then had trouble walking."
Handley didn't look comfortable his last AB on 16th (where he did a late check swing). Ironbirds put him on 7 day IL on the 20th so he could return on Wednesday the 28th. Having watch the Ironbirds put him back into games/series early in the year when he clearly wasn't healthy makes me think the medical staff if finally protecting the players by placing them on IL
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On 7/16/2021 at 4:38 PM, Can_of_corn said:
You don't think those splits mean anything do you?
I do. Since those stats, he played 10 games. 6 (4 catching) against the Hartford Yard Goats (worst team in all AA Northeast) His best game was 3-5 with 2 HR and a Dbl...while playing 1B. He also went 1-3 during his DH game. So 4-8 not behind the dish and 5-14 when behind the dish. He did go 8-22 while catching with 1 HR and 7K... but 5 of those hits came against the worst team... which correlates.
Orioles and writers are focusing on his overall numbers... not his catching numbers. Hell, writers just celebrated that he threw out 2 runners in the same game and his defense is getting where it needs to be...
I'll say it again... you want elite offense numbers, which he is capable of... then you don't want to keep him behind home plate.
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On 7/15/2021 at 9:09 AM, Can_of_corn said:
If that.
But if you give me the choice of paying one of the other two the minimum or Pedro 2M I'm going with one of the other two. Or Maverick because I'd totally promote a glove only college guy if those are my choices.
I look at Ben Rortvedt of the Twins. Drafted out of HS but Twins jumped him from AA in 2019 into MLB pretty early this year and are giving him chances. 28 games 78 AB and hitting 0.132. Twins stink and have no depth in Minors so he gets to run with it. Makes you think manipulation for O's. However, they have until Dec 2022 to move Handley or lose Handley. Unless Adley can hit better, I don't see a reason why the O's wouldn't want to move them together.
Rutschman's splits:
Catcher (168 PA): .227 AVG, 7 doubles, 8 HR, 23 RBI, 23 BB, 30 K, .314 OBP, .788 OPS
First base (64 PA): .353 AVG, 3 doubles, 3 HR, 9 RBI, 11 BB, 9 K, .484 OBP, 1.073 OPS
DH (31 PA): .400 AVG, 1 HR, 5 RBI, 10 BB, 0 K, .581 OBP, 1.131 OPS
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14 hours ago, wildcard said:
Means may need another start at AAA. Eshelman may stay for now.
I have Adley and Rodriguez both moving to AAA. I don't think Adley's slump matters. Its more about getting him half a season at AAA.
I agree Dusten Knight is ready for a move but I don't know if the O's are ready to DFA anyone on the major league roster. Lot of candidates but Elias has been slow to act on Matt Harvey or Valdez.
I did the Orioles, Tides, Baysox and Ironbirds rosters for this post. I looked at Delmarva but didn't complete the roster. I can't even find the O's FCL individual stats.
Its all just my guess. Rosters are after my proposed moves.
Means
Zimmermann IL
Watkins
Lopez
Alex Wells
Akin
Scott
Sulser
Fry
Tyler Wells
H Harvey -IL
Tate
Plutko
Valdez
M Harvey
Waiting
Dusten Knight
Option Anderson, Eshellman, (Lowther already down)
IL Lakins
1B Mountcastle
2B Valaika
SS Urias
3B Gutierrez
LF Hays
CF Mullins
RF Santander
C Severino
DH Mancini
4th OF Stewart
5th OF McKenna
UIF Leyba
BUC Wynns
Galvis IL
Franco IL
AAA
GRod
Bradish
Lowther
Smith
Kremer
Dustin Knight
Blaine Knight
Vespi
Diplan
Barreda
Wade
Hanhold
Custodio
Abad
Anderson
Eshelmann
Mattson
Demoted: Armstrong. Carroll, Greene, Jannis, Phillips
C Adley
1B/OF Nevin
2B Jones
SS McCoy
3B Dorrian
LF Neustrom
CF Jarrett
RF Diaz
DH/C Cumberland
1B/DH Escarra
Utility Wilkerson
UIF Bannon
UIF/SS Mejias-Brean
Ripken, Ciuffo demoted
Shaw IL
AA
DL Hall - IL
Bishop
Baumann
Brnovich
Peralta
Rom
Sedlock
Bautista
LeBron
Erwin
Jannis
Phillips
Armstrong
Carroll
Joyner
Almengo
Klimek
Naughton
Hayes
Hanifee - IL
1B Mundy
2B Grenier
SS Westburg
3B Welk
LF Stowers
CF Rizer
RF Turchin
C Hudgins
C Cuiffo
UIF Torres
UIF Canelo
1B/OF/ DH Ripken
2B Vavra - IL
UIF Ortiz - IL
A+
1B/DH Dashbash
2B Graffanino
SS Adem Hall
3B Henderson
LF Harris
CF Watson
RF Kehe
C Handley
DH /1B Bowen
4th OF Fontana
C Roberts
C Burgess
IF Cullen
Prizina
Stalling
Gillispie
Fenter
Young
McGinness
Perkins
Moore
Farmer
Conroy
McSweeney
Gillaspie
Ryan Watson
Ignacio Felix
Adam Stauffer
Wilson - IL
Ramirez - IL
Litscher - IL
Loeprich -IL
Blach - IL
If you move RUTSCHMAN to AAA with the idea of moving a 26 year old 1st Rd catcher that has been release 1 time already... to AA? What is the logic? To hand onto him at the slowing of other players? If you want to hang onto him... I could see HANDLEY moving up and CIUFFO moving down and they release Hudgins. ROBERTS then goes to A+ to get more playing time. Right now... CIUFFO hardly plays and is stuck on the Taxi squad for road games. That will likely continue to be his role.
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On 7/15/2021 at 11:42 AM, wildcard said:
Today is the mid point of the minor league season. Hyde mentioned a few days ago a resets in the minors.
What I think that means is now that the draft is over Elias will focus on promotions and demotions in the minors. Matt Blood has talked about the elements that go into promotions as performance, age, and is there an opening at the next level. Taking those things into account here is who I think will move up on July 19th, which is the next open day on the schedule.
O's roster
Means activated and Alex Wells called up: Eshelman and Anderson optioned to the Tides is my guess.
Tides roster
Rutschman, Dorrian, Neustrom, Rodriguez and Vespi promoted from Bowie. Ciuffo, Ripken, Armstrong, Carroll, Greene, Jannis and Phillips could be demoted to Bowie or released.
Baysox
Rom, Westburg and Mundy promoted from Aberdeen. Fenter, Klimek, Naughton and Hayes could be demoted to Aberdeen or released. Cullen demoted to Aberdeen because that is where he is needed.
Aberdeen
Brandon Young, Ryan Watson, Ignacio Felix, Adam Stauffer, and TT Bowen promoted from Delmarva. Pendergast, Nick Roth, Strowd, Megee, and Lucas demoted to Delmarva. These are all pitchers that were promoted from the NYPENN league to A+ ball at the beginning for the season and have not done well in the first half. Some may say promote Haskin to Aberdeen but they have Watson, Harris, Kehe and Fontana. So I question if Elias will do that at this point.
All this is JMG.
With the reduction of Minor League teams MLB lost the short season team that tends to get filled with the better/older College draftees and the Rookie league that are ready to move to make room for the late college rounds or early high school draftees.
Your logic takes into account moving players up and down but not cutting loose.
I like catchers so lets start there... Look at who is getting the most playing time and who isn't. Look at who is being moved to scout teams and up and down a lot...
We have the Tennessee catcher (7th Rd), HS Kid Creed Willems (8th Rd) and NDFA Virginia Catcher. Tennessee and Virginia both played is CWS so experience with talent and high level play is there. College to Pro... even Low A is a step. I see HS and Virginia starting in FL and Virginia moving to Delmarva if he can. Tennessee has to start in Delmarva so other players can fill holes of players moving up.
AAA: CUMBERLAND's stats are getting worse and worse month to month. A catcher can't make a living on HBP. His HR power early was impressive but July stats are killing him. AVG numbers dropped 60 pts from May to June and another 73 from June to May (Month to Month). Down to .205 which is not as impressive as the .254 after May when people were pushing to make a move for his bat. Again... 23 HBP's leads all of Minor's. This throws off his OBP and OPS. OPS is down to just .659.
AAA: CIUFFO is getting bounced around a lot. Only 12 games and 38 AB so small sample size. June he hit .200 and in may he is only .154 OPS is only .624. The O's keep bouncing him up to the Scout/shuttle team for road trips... no time to play or get reps there. That isn't a compliment... it is a hole filler in emergencies. He may be kept just thru this year and reassessed next season. VULNERABLE
AA: RUTSCHMAN. He is in a slow streak for July, but he isn't striking out... just hitting it at somebody. Great character and there is always the argument they are holding him back. At $8,000,000 he is going to get every chance to hit and will be moved up. He is not getting any younger. The most interesting thing I saw was a Tweet by Paul Fritschner on July 15th with Rutschman's splits hitting based on his position. Seemed to be a reply. Catcher (168 PA): .227 AVG, 7 doubles, 8 HR, 23 RBI, 23 BB, 30 K, .314 OBP, .788 OPS First base (64 PA): .353 AVG, 3 doubles, 3 HR, 9 RBI, 11 BB, 9 K, .484 OBP, 1.073 OPS DH (31 PA): .400 AVG, 1 HR, 5 RBI, 10 BB, 0 K, .581 OBP, 1.131 OPS. I haven't seen this information provided or even discussed by any of the main beat writers or Baseball America, etc. If he is 50% more productive in front of the dish rather than behind it... Handley may be the best option to get the benefit of the bat from Adley and the benefit of the Glove from Handley.
AA: HUDGINS was a rule 5 pick up. Before AA with Bowie, he was only low A for KC. He is actually slowly getting better from May to July. .135 to .208 to .211. But his OBP numbers are going down and so are his power numbers. VULNERABLE.
A+: HANDLEY. I have a friend who knows the Rep1 Agency that reps Handley so I pester him a bit because I liked Handley at Stanford. Apparently, Handley leads the Minors in Framing Efficiency and the word is it is ALL of the minors... not just Orioles. Again, no reports from O's on this because it doesn't fit the 1:1 narrative. Handley's knock has been his bat. I know he got beat up and some early HBP on his hands didn't help. His numbers from 2019 to 2021 are nice to see. 41 games played as of today each year. Only 4 doubles in 2019. 10 2B, 1 3B, 3 HR in 2021. More walks and less K's. Went from 2 SB in 2019 to 11 in 2021. He was garbage in June but leading all of the Ironbirds in July and only playing 4 games a week. So... maybe something triggered after his July 3rd walk off hit. His defense is as good as advertised. Still throwing out 45% of the runners (20-44) but a lot of those are off the newer pitchers that moved from A- to A+. Also has something like 6 pick offs? I try to keep track but not posted. If he can keep hitting, he should move as Adley moves. Again... I like Handley's skills and character. He had to develop himself in 2020 and seems to have done a lot of work. Now with 100% focus on Baseball and no more school (graduated in June) should be fun. Handley also speaks Spanish.
A+/AA/AAA: ROBERTS He was catching the 2 games Handley wasn't until they started bouncing him around between AA and AAA to be that emergency catcher. Again... no real development when not playing regularly. He hit well enough in Aberdeen, had 1 good game at AAA at end of a long week. But.... watching him catch vs Handley isn't close. His bat isn't good enough to carry him.
A+: BURGESS Didn't even play until Roberts was moved to cover. 41 AB and hitting 0.098. 24 years old... he is a bull pen catcher getting to play for now. Likely to stay that way.
A-: CANNON Hasn't played but 1 game in July. Got hit by a pitch and broke his hand I think. But had a great May that got people excite. July was poo-poo. His bat went away and he was never a defender... in 2021 threw out 5 of 54 base stealers. He is 24 and there may be younger better options coming in. VULNERABLE
A-: WILKIN GRULLON Looks like he was added to roster today from ROK league.
ADLEY moves to AAA to catch 4 games and DH 2 games. CUMBERLAND stays to catch 2 games and DH 3 GAMES. CIUFFO is the wild card... He has already been released once and was a 1st round pick that gets hurt and just doesn't get it done. But do O's keep him for Spring Training next year.
HANDLEY moves to AA to catch 4 games. Hudgins continues with 2 games and gets re-evaluated after season. It will be interesting to see the pitchers throw to HANDLEY instead of RUTSCHMAN
ROBERTS takes over HANDLEY role at A+ BURGESS stays for back up/bullpen this season.
WILD WEST is going to be DELMARVA I have NO IDEA or OPINION here.
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On 7/9/2021 at 4:50 PM, Can_of_corn said:
Handley was pre-med at Stanford. He's planning on finishing his degree.
https://www.mlb.com/news/featured/orioles-minor-leaguers-finishing-their-degrees
Pretty sure based on Instagram he actually did Graduate 4 weeks ago. I wondered why he missed the weekend games, but looks like Orioles let him do Graduation. https://www.instagram.com/p/CQFVxN4MYHD/
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On 6/15/2021 at 11:02 AM, spiritof66 said:
Thanks for the details.
The point under discussion was getting rid of Severino, and I brought up Sisco as a possible option after a little more time at Norfolk. I'm just tired of watching Severino give away extra bases by his inability to catch the ball, and it sounds like others feel the same way. Maybe as a veteran Severino has from value in the clubhouse or otherwise, but I've never heard that. I can't imagine that he does anything to help other catchers.
Sisco's 0 for 12 in CS seems really strange in light of his career numbers. Is there something odd going on there with the pitchers or infielders? (I see that Cumberland is 3 for 7.) No passed balls for Chance at Norfolk, anyway.I guess after today we won't find out... unless he clears waivers and the orioles sign him to a minor league deal? But then we go back to the same merry go round...
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10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:
Eshelman is terrible. There is no need to get a look at him.
It just makes no sense to me. And all of these Norfolk catcher moves and Adley isn’t moving up? Wtf?
Thry say one thing but the roster moves indicate something else.
If you were the President of the Orioles and had to make decisions both short term and long term with a vast history of working on rebuilds and the time it takes... with more uncertainty to the future than you had previously (because the CBA expires this December)... there are posters/bloggers/fans/writers that don't care about service time considerations and contracts. Get Adley up now and screw the clock and if he is ready. Look what happened to the Mariner's #1 prospect. Came up... went on a 1-40 hit streak and they had to send him back down to AAA which he pretty much skipped...
Adley has some great talent. He has shown some hot streaks and he has also shown some cold streaks. Go and chart how he is hitting while catching while hitting while playing 1B. Then... chart the pitchers he is hitting his home runs and doubles off of. Are these high level guys? Most of Adley's HR's are coming 1st pitch of a new pitcher. Great plan by Adley to swing as hard as he can on the first pitch of they guy fresh outta the pen trying to establish the zone. Adley does need to move to AAA for his bat. My concern is his arm. Something things off. You don't go from his CS% in college and 2019 to 20% and have your throws going into the outfield and to the SS side of the bag. That screams nerve issues when having to be quick and throw hard. Nerve pain would definitely impact accuracy and velocity.
He needs to face better pitching and get healthy because moving him to fast and then moving him back and there are too many people screaming BUST! already... Also... what if there is a strike in 2022 without a new CBA. If you move Adley up to MLB he is on 40 man and not eligible to play as a strike buster. Get major league time without the Union in 2022. Or using up his clock in a non-playing condition.
Then as a manager, if Cumberland, Ciuffo and Wynns can't do it at MLB or AAA what good is it for the other catchers AA and below to not be challenged to move up to take Adley's spot vs. moving someone down to fill a spot? The draft is coming up. The Orioles will be able to pick up a couple C's to fill lower tiers to allow a natural movement up and out... Adley move's up to AAA a couple weeks after the draft. Maverick potentially moves up to AA to get better officiating as his defense is solid but the strike outs aren't all on swing and miss. All his offensive numbers have improved. But who back fills for Maverick? Cannon was hot early but offense is way down so his games are way down... and his defense is trash. 4 of 51 runners caught stealing? That is 8% Only better than Sisco's 1-15 at AAA level. Hudgins looked about to retire from KC before being grabbed by Orioles and he has defended okay, his other numbers aren't prospect worthy.
If I was in the Orioles system and no one can see past the future apparent Lord and Savior of the Orioles they think can stick behind the dish, I would be begging my agency to be talking to the LA Angels to get into their system... They have absolute garbage in the pipeline to the point I wouldn't be surprised to see them take a flier on Sisco but not for the 40 man.
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14 hours ago, Philip said:
Maverick Handley
Handley has gotten beaten up by HBP and screwed by the quality of umpiring... but he has to continue to show he can hit. It would be nice to see Adley move up so Handley can move up as well. Hudgins has hit a few HR at AA but it looked as if he would have retired if not for the Rule 5 draft bringing him over from KC. Aberdeen really experienced life without Handley this past weekend with Brnovich and Rom getting bombed with Roberts behind the plate. As it looked like on Instagram/twitter that Handley was at Stanford getting his diploma.
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15 hours ago, spiritof66 said:
Sisco is OPSing .799 at Norfolk. Maybe in a few weeks it will be Wynns and Sisco. Not good, but better.
In 42 innings (5 games) at AAA, he has 2 errors and is 0 for 12 in trying to throw runners out. He hits 3rd every game since the move so has 33 AB with 13 K and only 8 hits. Bit of an improvement over his MLB numbers but Norfolk has played A$$ teams the past couple weeks. Are you wanting an offensive or defensive improvement.
The Orioles do need to do something. Davis is a waste of space on the AAA roster except that the coaches/players like him. So he is your bullpen guy. Now that Ciuffo is also on the active roster at Norfolk, his defensive numbers are fairly consistent but he has moved slowly thru the minors before Baltimore for some reason.
Need to start moving others up and down if there is no value for the garbage on the field... but one man's trash is another man's treasure... For me? You can only polish a terd so much
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19 hours ago, Tony-OH said:
Well, I'll be honest and say I've seen more video of Rutschman catching than Maverick and I wasn't necessarily scouting them for their defense at the time. Rutschman comes with the scouting reports of being an outstanding defensive catcher and from what I've seen, his framing, and leadership with pitchers looks top notch. His throwing has not been great this year overall, but I don't see that being a problem.
I like Maverick defensively but his game calling needs work. Maybe he's told ahead of time what to call or what to work on with his pitchers, but there have been several times I can recall watching games and being frustrated by his insistence to keep using the same pitch in the same glove location too often. Again, without know what they've told him to do, this has stood out to me.
I do think Handley does a good job of presenting strikes and seems to have a good relationship with his pitchers. He also throws very well, probably a hair better than Rutschman.
Maybe they are 1A and 1B vs 1 vs 2, but they both are above average defensive catchers from what I've seen.
Agreed, both are above average defensive catchers and spending $8,000,000+ vs $250,000 there is a lot more on the line for Adley to succeed to satisfy the fan base and so most people aren't looking for weaknesses or someone that may be better as it clouds the excitement. It is going to be very interesting to see how the Orioles try to hand on to Maverick if he can continue his improvements offensively. Like I said... I have been watching both of these guys because of the Pac-12 and ultimately if they both succeed the Orioles are going to benefit from that more than anyone that doesn't see it coming will expect.
'Normal' people don't watch catchers for their defense unless they are specifically looking at them for that. Even then you have to look at the who is pitching, hitting, situation, etc. It is hard. New pitchers, new batters, etc in the minors with less data on them for the 'catching cards'. I am absolutely not a normal person. I also know there is an art to calling games. That is why most college coaches don't allow players to call the games. I remember reading an article/story on Maverick. https://gostanford.com/feature/MavMoments from that story, this is the part that may explain some of what leads to your frustration, "They talk after every inning. Eager tries to educate Handley on why calls were made or find out more about what Handley called. A lesson Handley is learning is that pitches aren’t simply meant to get a batter out. They sometimes have a greater purpose. For instance, Eager may call a pitch that he knows will be hit safely, usually early in a game, to set up a pitch at a more impactful moment later."
Because of the 2018 CWS run and the drama of that championship series, Adley got a lot of attention which was well deserved. You have to look for scouting reports on Maverick... D1 makes you pay for them. but some on BA don't have fees. Baseball America did before the 2019 super regional. https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2019-ncaa-super-regional-preview-starkville/ Really interesting how this coach specifically called out the difference between Adley and Maverick...
Scouting Report (anonymous coach breaks down the Cardinal)
“Just the physicality, the way those guys swing the bat, Kyle Stowers, Brandon Wulff, Andrew Dashbach. Maverick Handley for me gets a bad rap about not being totally offensive. That guy’s dangerous and he knows what he’s doing. I’d like to see guys catch as many innings as he does and hang in there. It takes a special guy like Adley Rutschman to hit like he does. But Maverick is catching every game and has caught every game for two years.
“They’re going to make you earn it, you’re not going to get a lot of gifts there. The other part where the field shrinks is Maverick. He blocks and retrieves as well as anybody else in the country. His athleticism with his body structure is off the charts. The way he manages that staff, he shrinks bases because you’re not getting a lot of free bases with passed balls or wild pitches because he’s doing a great job of limiting those opportunities. And when you’ve got to get three this to score a run against that staff and that defense, that’s a tall task.
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11 hours ago, Frobby said:
Nice info. I do note that runners seem a bit more willing to test Maverick than Handley, based on attempts per innings caught. But you do make a good case. Obviously the game is a bit different in AA than in A+, so that has to be considered.
I considered the attempts per innings caught. There are several factors for certain that go into attempts. The obvious one this year is the pick off rule in A+ which is not the same in AA. In addition is LHP vs RHP. There are a lot more LHP starters in Bowie the Aberdeen. So less attempts. The team mentality on running. Hudson Valley and Wilmington are right up there with Aberdeen in attempts/stolen bases this year. In AA, Bowie has not played a lot of close games where the reward for a stolen base is worth the risk. The other one that I started to correlate is how often Maverick calls for the balls in the dirt. On the ones he blocks and the runner goes, when he throws down, if the runner is safe it is a stolen base because he made the attempt. If he didn't throw, it would be a wild pitch. Adley doesn't call for as many balls in the dirt. Which may be because of the pitchers preference... but this year thru end of May (so not counting yesterday), Bowie had 17 Wild Pitches while Aberdeen only had 9. It is only a wild pitch when the runner advances. The real data won't show until they are catching the same pitchers in the same league.
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On 5/28/2021 at 3:20 PM, Tony-OH said:
Rutschman overall, but Maverick is second for me. Cumberland is not awful defensively but he's not a good defender either.
I am and have been a PRO Maverick fan since and during his time at Stanford. With all the rain in New York, I was able to watch a lot of archived games of Bowie and Aberdeen. I have also been able to watch a lot of Adley during his games at OSU. I think Adley is a VERY good catcher while I think Maverick is a great catcher So, when you look at overall impact of the player on the team based on the play at the position, I am very intrigued by your logic for Rutschman being ahead of Maverick defensively? Again, this is a defensive question not an offensive question.
Comparing stats:
In 2019, Adley caught 7 of 11 runners trying to steal. 63%. He only caught 17 games or 142 innings. He also had 4 errors. Maverick in 2019 caught 19 of 30 runners trying to steal. 63%. He caught 29 games for 249 innings. He only had 2 errors.
In 2021, Adley has caught 14 games/122 innings. Caught 2 of 10 runners (20%) and has 1 error. Maverick in 2021 has caught 13 games/108 innings. Caught 7 of 13 runners (54%) and also picked off 4 more runners. No Errors.
Video/Body Language:
In looking at the video this weekend of Adley catching and Maverick catching, it looks to be like Maverick 'steals' more strikes and calls for a lot of balls to be thrown into the dirt by his pitchers with 2 strikes. He also seemed quicker behind the plate. I was trying to find plays that Adley made that aren't expected to be made by your catcher. I didn't see any. Maverick has videos of him with defensive gems going back years both with Orioles and Cardinal. Again, this is a defense discussion as there are offensively highlights galore of Adley.
I really feel like Adley gives the Orioles a Joe Mauer type player who will move to 1B to keep his bat high. Maverick gives the Pudge/Molina type catcher who keeps the opposing teams Runs down but isn't a guaranteed out behind the dish.
So, again, I am very interested in your logic? Because if my wife hasn't reminded me enough... just because I have a strong opinion it doesn't mean that I am right.
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On 4/22/2021 at 4:35 PM, Frobby said:
Is he even the best defensive catcher we drafted in 2019? He and Maverick Handley were co-defensive players of the year in the PAC-12 that year. (Full disclosure: Rutschman won the Div. I Gold Glove.)
Look, I’m highly confident based on what I’ve read that Rutschman will eventually be an above average pro defender. Do I know that he’s ready to be that now? No.
Rutschman has the potential to be an above average pro defender. Absolutely. The D1 Gold Glove was awarded likely because his offensive numbers since Oregon State played Adley at 1B about 30-40% of the time in 2018 & 2019. You just couldn't ignore the offense. However, D1 Baseball wrote a really interesting article prior to the 2019 regionals where all of the PAC12 coaches felt Maverick was more important to his team as a catcher than Adley. Both young men have outstanding character and leadership. I believe Maverick has a photographic memory, speaks Spanish, and has called his own games since he was 12. Adley's bat will be his bat even at 1B or OF. Handley is a game changer at catcher. I see tons of videos of Handley's throw downs and pick offs that change the game. It will be interesting to see how the Orioles can make most of what they have with these two. Word at Stanford was Nico Hoerner was only infielder at Stanford ahead of Handley on depth chart... and he is doing okay in Chicago. Will the Orioles explore Maverick at 2B? Like Biggio back in the day. The bat is going to drive the discussions for the next couple years for sure.
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18 hours ago, Frobby said:
Handley was co-PAC 12 defensive player of the year, with Rutschman. So I assume his defense is very good.
Handley led the all of D-1 Baseball in 2019 with 9 Pick Offs... and that was with the offense knowing he would do it. In 2019 he threw out 19 of 30 runners trying to steal 2nd which is 63%? This year, watching the streams in Hudson Valley, he has thrown out 2 of 4. The 2 not caught? Balls dropped by the 2nd basemen. I think if the Orioles don't figure out what to do with him... he will be gone come December 2022's Rule 5 draft. His knock was his offense... and sounds like he spent the shutdown year working on that...
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12 hours ago, higgybaby said:
I don’t know but if Adley has the type of career that some believe that he is capable of, I bet a lot more people will be naming their sons Adley than Maverick or Cannon.
Top Gun 2 may change that after it comes out this year for kids named outside the baseball circle... other interesting tidbit... Adley only makes up 71.4% of "HaNdley"
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Do the Orioles need to 'develop' a FIRST BASEMAN in the minors?
in Minors
Posted
Looking at AAA Norfolk there is no 'true' 1st Baseman position player on the roster. They will play 1 of their four (yes 4) catchers to get them AB's while another catches and another DH's. But the DH spots have gone down since promotion of Henderson and Westburg and the return of Vavra. SO... no 1st baseman by definition.
Looking at AA Bowie, we have Daschbach & Mundy. Daschbach is striking out at a 37% rate but has increased his walk rate to 13%. Mundy has a 27% K rate and 7% walk rate. Ultimately, right now, Daschbach has a OPS of 0.685 and Mundy is at 0.677. Are these good enough for 1st baseman? Mundy had a 2 day surge to really help his numbers. THE FACT IS, in my opinion of FACT anyway... Mundy has no position! if anyone actually watches the games, he is a liability at 1B and he isn't good enough to be a pure DH. Daschbach is a high level 1B defender and can play LF on occasion. I think it is time to cut MUNDY LOOSE. We need a spot to put Welk when he returns from the IL. In the mean time, Handley and Roberts could be getting Mundy's AB's. Handley more C time and Roberts gets more time in OF and 1B.
Looking at A+ Aberdeen (I don't watch the games because I can only handle so much 'sounds of the game background noise') we have Bowens & Teter respectively. Bowens has improved is OBP by doubling his walk rate. His SLG numbers down. But he is still sitting at 0.815 OPS. Teter has a higher AVG ad SLG but a bit lower OPS. I don't know how the play defense. But their numbers seem okay for getting game AB's.
Ultimately, isn't 1B in MLB for a strong bat with the ability to NOT BE A LIABILITY defensively? I just don't know if we have those bats in the middle minors to justify taking AB's from infielders/outfielders/catchers that could be using those AB's.