banks703

I don’t have any. I’m going off of the 25+ games that I watched him play this last year. I’m sure there is enough video out there if you look for it. Not to be a putz to you but that’s just not something that I’m going to do. We’ll see him play during ST. I’m sure that more will see what I’ve described. I think the contention is that if he doesn’t end up as a SS he’s somehow a lesser player. I disagree. I think he’s Robinson Cano and paired with Gunnar, they’re going to be a ridiculous offensive tandem up the middle. He will get better with reps, time, maturity, etc. all of the things that I have agreed with as it pertains to his development but I just don’t see him as a good defensive SS. Much better suited for 2B in my opinion but we’ll see. Elias and Hyde and company obviously know more. It’s only a good thing if he grows into an adequate SS. It’s not like I’m rooting against him there.

LOL Sure thing, pal. Remember when I tried to get you to put your mouth where your keyboard mouth is and make a ban bet with you that he would end up at second? Crickets there if I recall.

Right right. Just like no one else was saying that he would end up playing 2B when I was posting that almost a year back. 2B is where I think he is best suited given his profile. But we shall see. Behind EBJ, Cowser is probably the next best CF prospect in their system and while I am a very strong advocate for CC as a CFer, he has to prove that he can man Center in big league ballparks with the third deck. I think he will be fine but we shall see. JH’s maybe their next best athlete in their system behind EBJ. I have no doubt that he could play the outfield, especially if he begins learning it now at only 20 years old. Pin this post of yours and let’s revisit in two years.

I have been suggesting that a move to the OF is still not out of the question for him. I think his tools may even play up out there in Center. If it's 2026 and EBJ has not broken into the lineup as the starting CFer, I think it's a very real possibility that they explore JH out in Center.

It’s all of the other things for me when it comes to where he ultimately ends up long-term. I just see the range being a factor, the stiff hips, the inability to cut off in the betweeners, not being comfortable or fluid fielding to his hand side, etc etc. the list goes on for why I think he’s just better suited for 2B, even if Gunnar eventually outgrows third, which I am not convinced that he does but time will tell. I don’t think that it devalues JH if he ends up a career 2B. I see a Robinson Cano career for him, which, would be pretty damn amazing and make him a HoF player in my eyes. There’s a lot to like about him as a 20 year old prospect (obviously) but I just don’t see the physical makeup for an ideal ML SS, especially when the O’s have prioritized defense at the position and have internal options who are far and away better defensively there. He’s going to improve but I just don’t see him ever being a good defensive SS.

I happened upon a quote (and I failed to find it for @Frobby sometime ago but the quote was something along the lines that he grew up playing 2B and felt most comfortable there and that he still considers himself a good 2B despite having played SS the last few years. I believe that quote was taken from him prior to him being drafted but again, I had to stop citing it because I can't find it.

I have stated that I believe that he will improve. 100% I think he will improve but I also do not believe that he is ever going to be the best defensive option at the position and on a team like the O's who have gone out of their way to prioritize defense up the middle, I just don't see him being the guy there unless they give him the Manny treatment at the end of his tenure with the O's and potentially market him to other teams as a SS for trade value. Eventually I think they can they stick him there if they absolutely have to do so and he won't butcher the position but he's not going to be a good defender. That's my feeling. Perhaps they eventually can live with the subpar D there if it increases his trade value when the time comes. Maybe he will shock me and improve enough to be good there. I doubt it...although David Eckstein had a long career as a SS in the majors despite MAJOR physical limitations and generally poor defense as a SS.. and he was not half the offensive player that JH is going to grow into.

The point is that Gunnar is far and away the superior defender at the more premier defensive position. They would not move Gunnar to a less important position is my point and valid.

Just as you suggest that I am overlooking things, I think you are overlooking the fact that Gunnar split his time between 3B and SS last year. He's now had an entire offseason to prepare as the SS, came to camp knowing that he will be the starting SS, etc. I'm with Cal on the idea of limiting how much Gunnar moves about the infield. Give me an entire year of Gunnar at SS and I bet he's in the running for a GG. Hell, he should have won it for Utility last year.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and despite my bickering with him, I do value his perspective on things though I almost exclusively disagree with him. JH is going to hit from Day 1 with bat-to-ball skills that the O's have maybe never had in their org...ever. That's obviously saying a lot but the kid is going to produce top tier offensive seasons whether his feet are in the dirt on the left or the right side of the infield, playing CF, super utility, selling peanuts or cleaning the toilets. His defense doesn't have a lot of influence on his prospect ranking. The kid is a stud with the stick, plain and simple. He would still be extremely highly ranked for his incredibly mature offensive game regardless of his future position.

I think it's more that we we're just refusing to acknowledge that we might be wrong about something. Yoan Moncada was briefly ranked #1 as a 2B in 2016.

In that world, the Orioles have no other players in their system that can play on the left side of the infield and in the event of that, they would still put Holliday at third with Gunnar staying at SS. You can keep throwing out stuff until it lands on something that supports your position in this debate if you want but only time will tell. The question is (and I've stated this recently as well) whether Mayo's defense can be good enough at third. An IF of Mayo, Gunnar, JH and Basallo with Adley behind the plate could very well be their best alignment both offensively and defensively for a three or four year stretch, perhaps longer if they extend Adley.

Right.. but JH will only be 26 in 6 years. As someone in my late 30's, that makes me feel old.

Sticking to the Prospect Ranking is so absurd. What does he or the O's get by him or Gunnar or Adley being ranked number 1? Judge was the 53 ranked prospect in 2015. I'd say he turned out alright for being just the 53rd highest ranked guy that year.

They're there. Go look for yourself. I'm not your assistant.

First.. most is not accurate as it relates to those who questioned Gunnar sticking at SS. There were concerns but it was hardly a consensus. Secondly, the questions on Gunnar as a SS were not about his skill/talent as a defender. The two main concerns were whether he could be more consistent to occupy the most premier infield position for you and if he would outgrow SS. There weren't questions around his arm, his ability to make plays in the hole, his mechanics fielding a groundball, etc. etc. so that statement above is quite misleading. Gunnar may outgrow SS. At 22 he's 6'4ish and probably every bit of 215 lbs, if not bigger. As he matures physically he very well could add 15 lbs of muscle without the extended effort that would be required of someone like EBJ to add the same amount. But just as you point that JH's incentive to improve as a SS is the payday, Gunnar has that same incentive and he's already night and day better as a defender than JH and was two years ago at the same age as JH.

I am paying very close attention to SJ's spring. I am a huge fan and could see him make similar improvements as Bradish. The stuff is really good. Can he and the O's hone it in and salvage his potential? I think they can/will.

You're just moving goal posts at this point. I have 100% stated and will continue to state that he is not going to be a good defender at SS.. because he will not be a good defender at SS. National publications are beginning to write more about his defensive limitations, so it isn't just me that sees it. He is better suited for 2B and I don't rule out a move to the OF. Gunnar, Joey and Jorge were/are far superior defenders to him right now and unless something happens to Gunnar, he will continue to pace JH on the defensive side. There's nothing wrong with moving JH to 2B. I've compared that combo up the middle to Seager and Semien but honestly I see more Cano in JH than Semien and I think we should be disappointed if JH is only Marcus Semien.

Uh huh... see all of my posts about the more to SS than just arm strength. It's ok.. keep circling this. If the O's end up moving on from Gunnar in five or six years and they slide JH over to SS then, I'm sure that you will come back and point to how you predicted him as a ML SS in 2024. Good fer you, bud.

Pretty sure that I've stated consistently that I feel that he will improve and that he can probably play there but that he's never going to be their top defensive option at a premier defensive position, on a team that has demonstrated their prioritization of defense up the middle. It's ok that you were wrong about something. I know that's difficult for you to accept.

It's obviously a good problem to have if Holliday can improve to serviceable at SS but I just don't see it. The arm strength isn't the only thing that sticks out to me. I don't like his hips as a SS, I don't like how he bends at the waist to field groundballs.. I could keep going but we've beaten up this topic enough. I think we're having a different conversation about this altogether if Gunnar hadn't improved his consistency sooo much last year but he did. JH will get better, no doubt. The sky is the limit for him but it'll be as a 2B or an eventual move to the OF.

I don't mean to be an "I told you so" kinda guy (and I hope you know that I'm not writing that to you, you have extended appreciation to my input and I appreciate that) but this is almost literally the exact thing that I wrote about him and why I have been fiercely adamant that he ends up at second base. The combo of Gunnar's excellence at SS and Holiday's limitations (he is also a bit stiff in the hips for your ideal SS, bends too much to field vs. lowering himself via his legs among other things) is why I think Gunnar at SS and Holliday at 2B with Joey's exiting the org.

I wonder if anyone on the board was writing this about him say, 6 or 8 months back... I wonder.