banks703

First.. most is not accurate as it relates to those who questioned Gunnar sticking at SS. There were concerns but it was hardly a consensus. Secondly, the questions on Gunnar as a SS were not about his skill/talent as a defender. The two main concerns were whether he could be more consistent to occupy the most premier infield position for you and if he would outgrow SS. There weren't questions around his arm, his ability to make plays in the hole, his mechanics fielding a groundball, etc. etc. so that statement above is quite misleading. Gunnar may outgrow SS. At 22 he's 6'4ish and probably every bit of 215 lbs, if not bigger. As he matures physically he very well could add 15 lbs of muscle without the extended effort that would be required of someone like EBJ to add the same amount. But just as you point that JH's incentive to improve as a SS is the payday, Gunnar has that same incentive and he's already night and day better as a defender than JH and was two years ago at the same age as JH.

I am paying very close attention to SJ's spring. I am a huge fan and could see him make similar improvements as Bradish. The stuff is really good. Can he and the O's hone it in and salvage his potential? I think they can/will.

You're just moving goal posts at this point. I have 100% stated and will continue to state that he is not going to be a good defender at SS.. because he will not be a good defender at SS. National publications are beginning to write more about his defensive limitations, so it isn't just me that sees it. He is better suited for 2B and I don't rule out a move to the OF. Gunnar, Joey and Jorge were/are far superior defenders to him right now and unless something happens to Gunnar, he will continue to pace JH on the defensive side. There's nothing wrong with moving JH to 2B. I've compared that combo up the middle to Seager and Semien but honestly I see more Cano in JH than Semien and I think we should be disappointed if JH is only Marcus Semien.

Uh huh... see all of my posts about the more to SS than just arm strength. It's ok.. keep circling this. If the O's end up moving on from Gunnar in five or six years and they slide JH over to SS then, I'm sure that you will come back and point to how you predicted him as a ML SS in 2024. Good fer you, bud.

Pretty sure that I've stated consistently that I feel that he will improve and that he can probably play there but that he's never going to be their top defensive option at a premier defensive position, on a team that has demonstrated their prioritization of defense up the middle. It's ok that you were wrong about something. I know that's difficult for you to accept.

It's obviously a good problem to have if Holliday can improve to serviceable at SS but I just don't see it. The arm strength isn't the only thing that sticks out to me. I don't like his hips as a SS, I don't like how he bends at the waist to field groundballs.. I could keep going but we've beaten up this topic enough. I think we're having a different conversation about this altogether if Gunnar hadn't improved his consistency sooo much last year but he did. JH will get better, no doubt. The sky is the limit for him but it'll be as a 2B or an eventual move to the OF.

I don't mean to be an "I told you so" kinda guy (and I hope you know that I'm not writing that to you, you have extended appreciation to my input and I appreciate that) but this is almost literally the exact thing that I wrote about him and why I have been fiercely adamant that he ends up at second base. The combo of Gunnar's excellence at SS and Holiday's limitations (he is also a bit stiff in the hips for your ideal SS, bends too much to field vs. lowering himself via his legs among other things) is why I think Gunnar at SS and Holliday at 2B with Joey's exiting the org.

I wonder if anyone on the board was writing this about him say, 6 or 8 months back... I wonder.

If Holliday can improve enough to be a major league quality SS, even average defensively, it is only a good thing for the O’s. Again, I have serious doubts on this based on what I’ve seen over 30ish games but he is only 20 years old and he certainly can improve on the defensive side. Gunnar is (in my opinion) the best SS in the system now with Joey’s departure. His improvement last year coupled with Jorge’s regression elevated him to the top for me. I just don’t see them moving the much much better defensive player to a less important infield position to make room for another guy. To me, the alignment questions come down to who is less of a defensive drop-off from Gunnar and I think that Mayo is the x-factor. If Mayo shows that he can be average or better at the hot corner it really puts them in a pickle (a good one of course) with the Mayo, Holliday, Gunnar and Westburg. I’ve posted about Westburg’s potential to be Ben Zobrist. I genuinely think that is their plan and why the seemed to prefer him over Ortiz (I’m speculating of course and I personally preferred Joey). If Mayo can stick at third it almost requires them to move Holliday to second and to keep Gunnar at SS. I believe that’s what all of this will boil down to in the end and I think Mayo’s physical skills for 3B are better suited than Holliday’s skills as a SS. I think that’s how it plays out long term and we see Basallo and Kjerstad eventually force a Mountcastle move. I posted about an infield potential of Mayo, Gunnar, Holliday and Basallo. They could have these four guys as soon as 2025 with four years (three really productive between them all together) that I think will rival that 2009 Yankees. I have comped Holliday to Robbie Cano many times. I think that’s who Holliday is and why it’s perfectly acceptable that he ends up at 2B. Altuve won an MVP as a 2B. Pedroia won an MVP as a 2B. Jeff Kent, Joe Morgan, etc. I think some folks feel that moving Holliday to 2B reduces his value or makes him less than, which isn’t completely true. Not when your team already has a stud ROY SS who is only two years older than Holliday.

I’ll go as far as claiming to be Joey’s biggest fanboy but I am extremely happy with the trade (even though I’m not the biggest fan of Burnes). Joey gets an opportunity and doesn’t continue to waste away in the minors and the O’s get a legitimate top of the rotation pitcher. The net gain for 24, for a legitimate title run was too good.

Of course I quote Tony. He’s the authority on this board as it relates to their prospects and I value his opinion. I can’t say that I’ve seen him post that he thinks that Holliday ends up at SS and Gunnar at third. Perhaps I missed it. Is that your feeling @Tony-OH? I’ve seen enough of Holliday that my feeling is that he ends up at 2B. That’s my opinion and time will tell us.

I don’t overrate Gunnar’s defense at SS. Joey was the best defensive shortstop in the org. I stand by that. Tony has stated that as often as me if not more often. Gunnar closed the gap between the two of them with his improved consistency in 23. That was the big knock on whether he could stick at SS, more so than the idea that he would outgrow the position. Gunnar was elite at SS while bouncing back and forth between SS and third. I think the org is going into 24 with the intention of him playing 90% or more of his defensive innings at one position, which will be SS. To your point about no one in the org touching him at third… guess what? no one is touching him at SS. Holliday’s limitations as a SS go beyond the lack of arm strength. There’s lots of reporting on this. I’m not the only person who sees it. He’s not rangy. His instincts and timing are poor and cause him to get caught on the in-between hops a lot. His hips are extremely stiff and his footwork is VERY bad and he has trouble squaring his body when throwing on plays that he has to charge in to make. However he does throw surprisingly accurately when moving to his left. Yes he’s only 20. Yes he will improve. Yes the O’s could just decide to stick him there and move Gunnar to third. But they aren’t going to do that. If the choice is between having Gunnar’s elite D at third with a significant drop of defense at SS with Holliday, or Gunnar’s elite D at SS with a lesser drop in D from Mayo at third, they’re going with Mayo at third and Gunnar at SS.

With Gunnar you have above average, borderline elite defense and very good range, even for a bigger kid. This affords them some capacity to allow Mayo to play his way off of third base. I realize that he’s a big kid but it’s not like he’s Pablo Sandoval at 300 lbs over there. He’s big as in he’s 6’5 and built like a Tight End. He’s athletic and has a cannon. He’s lateral movement/quickness and footwork is the question. Personally I think he’s more likely to stick at 3B than Holliday is likely to stick as a SS.

Which is what I’ve been posting for the better part of a year. I’ve never seen Holliday as a ML SS. His bat probably convinces other organizations to overlook the defensive liabilities but the O’s have the luxury of Gunnar. I think they go with Mayo out of the gate simply because they don’t need Holliday’s bat to compete for the division and have enough everywhere else that they can weather Mayo’s growing pains.

Not unless Gunnar’s defense falls off of a cliff and Holliday’s defense improves considerably. With Joey’s departure, Gunnar elevates to their best defensive option..even with Jorge still in the org. Gunnar’s improved consistency was (for me, admittedly) unexpected but one of the most important developments of their season in 23. Management has demonstrated numerous times now that they prefer to stagger major league promotions. This tells me that they’re going to give both Mayo and Holliday a real shot to make the OD roster, which only makes sense if one can earn a starting role. My money is on Mayo to begin the year as the 3B.

His whispering eye, maybe?

Just change it to TradedAngelos

I’m as big of a supporter of Jorge as we have on this board and I’d argue that I am also one of Joey’s biggest supporters so it gave me no joy to see Jorge struggle and the O’s seemingly refusal to give Joey a legitimate chance to contribute. 23 was a wasted year for Joey and now he is a year older. He should have replaced Jorge on the roster in 23.

Well, I told you that he’s entering his age 26 season. You seem to have not known that but alright, math is hard for you and seems to be a sensitive subject. I’ll include pictures of my fingers and toes when counting above 20 so that you can follow along.

The same Royce Lewis with two ACL tears? I agree with your point but I don’t know if he is a good example. He was a stud who ran into some very bad luck with the knee injuries. He would have been a producing major leaguer three years ago if it weren’t for the injuries. The same can be said about Kjerstad but for Joey, Norby, Stowers, etc who are aging out of “prospect” status their value decreases the more time that they are not on a ML roster (and yes I realize that they are still very much considered prospects but at 26 can we really refer to Joey as a prospect?)

Right. Or the upper level prospects continue to waste away in the minors.

LOL sure, pal. You can circle around whatever wagons you want until you land on something that you (think) supports your position but you’re still incorrect. Die on this hill though. That’s your journey. And btw Joey is entering his age 26 season. So, yeah.

Right. This is my point about the more these higher level prospects age, the less valuable they become to the major league team and more so, an acquiring team. If Joey is stuck in the minors until he’s 30 years old, he’s obviously not as valuable as he was at 25 years old. So, in this way the org is in fact wasting their youth = value Kjerstad is obviously an exception and of course losing the minor league season to Covid adds to it but the point remains.