Tony-OH

Urias was -10 OAA and -7 FRV at 3B last year. He has a well below average arm for the left side of the infield.

No, I stated it was based on guys on the 40-man and defense only. I would not want McKenna over Hays in LF or Cowser in RF. McKenna is ok defensively, but not a stud out there. And we'll always have that one handed drop. Ortiz is better defensively than both Mateo and Henderson.

Not sure how I'm doing that at all by what I just posted. I said combined he was worth 1 FRV and O OAA. I personally think Gunnar will end up a plus defensive 3B, perhaps even elite at some point. My entire argument is that I don't think Gunnar will be an elite defensive SS and certainly was not last year. He was solid average, which is still very good. He's certainly playable there.

That's a good question. Ortiz is the better defender by far, even though Westburg was solid average at 2B and 3B last year, I'd take him defensively at either and Ortiz is the best defensive SS in the org. Now, Westburg has the more explosive bat and has the better plate discipline. He has more power for sure and hits less ground balls. If the Orioles believe Holliday will be able to handle SS defensively at the major league level (they have more data than I do) then there is less risk in trading him. If they think Holliday will have to move to 2B or 3B, then I think they'd prefer to move Westburg vs Ortiz. To me it's very close but because of Ortiz's ability to play a plus SS and plus, plus 2B, I'd probably prefer to keep him over Westburg.

Potentially. Let's say he's traded, Mayo is sent back to AAA to work in RF as well as 3B and 1B, and Holliday is sent back to AAA to play SS and 2B. This would leave the lineup at 3B, SS and 2b as: Vs righties: 3B: Urias SS : Henderson 2B: Westburg Vs LHB 3B: Henderson with occasional days off going to Urias SS: Mateo 2B: Westburg

Yes, he would be if he met the criteria. I do think he's a better overall defender at 2B than Westburg, though I think he Orioles are going to send him back and play both SS and 2B at Norfolk to stat the season.

I think Holliday would be a better overall defensive 2B than Westburg. I liked what I saw him there, but I have not given up on him playing SS at the major league level yet either. Westburg would not be an effective defensive SS.

Dansby Swanson (15), Ezequiel Tovar (12) and Willie Adams (12) were the top three shortstops for Fielding Run Value. Even taking 3B into account, Henderson came in tied for 39th best, at 1 FRV. From an OAA perspective, Swanson (20), Willie Adames (16), and Tovar (16) were top three. Witt was 4th with 14 OAA. Gunnar wa tied with Maeo at 0 OAA. So while Gunnar was solid average a shortstop, he's far from the "elite" status there. Now, play him 150 games at 3B and let's see how the numbers shake out.

We've been discussing in multiple threads who fits where best defensively. So without taking the bats into consideration, and only going off the current 40-man roster, this is the best defensive team the Orioles can put on the field to start 2024. Just a note, a player can only be in one position so in the case of Joey Ortiz where he would be the best shortstop and second baseman, he can only be one. 1B: Ryan Mountcastle 2B: Jordan Westburg SS: Joey Ortiz 3B: Gunnar Henderson C : Adley Rutschman LF: Austin Hays CF: Cedric Mullins RF: Colton Cowser Now there is going to be some argument that Gunnar Henderson is the best defensive shortstop, and by arm strength alone, they would be right, but I've seen enough quickness, smoothness and consistency from Joey Ortiz that he would be preference at SS, especially since Henderson is by and far the best defensive 3B.

Wait, you're not using the gold glove winner as an example of who is elite, are you? This is an award that once given to Rafeal Palmeiro when he DH'd for much of the year. This an award that was given to Alex Gordon a GG in left field when every advanced metrics said he was below average including both DRS and OAA. Eric Hosmer won the GG in 2017 at 1B because he had won previous years, but he was below average in OAA and DRS and there were several better candidates. And I know we don't want to say it, Adam Jones won the GG in 2012 and was pretty below average in every metric. Watch this video if you want to see more reasons why GG wins are not a great metric to use:

Yes, I'm well aware of the subjective ratings that come from UZR. Here's an article that explains better than I could why I think OOA and now defensive runs are more accurate. https://www.thedrummeyangle.com/post/defensive-metrics-examining-how-to-evaluate-the-game-s-fielders

Gunnar was much better than expected, but let's off on the "elite" talk defensively. He was worth 0 OAA at both SS and 3B and was worth +1 run value between SS and 3B. Do I think Gunnar can be an effective defensive major league shortstop, yes I do, because he showed that last year, but let's not go overboard on him. to me, despite a lesser arm, Ortiz is the best defensive shortstop available to the Orioles right now. If the Orioles decide he's major league ready, he should start at SS with Gunnar moving over to 3B. Saying that, I still like Mayo's bat and think his defense at 3B will be good enough so maybe a Mato, Henderson, Ortiz infield would be good if Westburg is moved in trade. But side by side, the better defensive infield has Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at 3B.

He got married and forgot how to pitch effectively or was too worn out to pitch effectively. Or just happened to get bad right after. I don't really think it was because he got married, but he's what I always think of when I hear of a player getting married.

Let's hope he's not like Jimmy Key!

Caring what the fans think instead of trying to improve your organization for long term success is a bad recipe.

Well not if the Orioles land him I don't.

Sounds like a pretty good assessment based off the noise out there. Someone could pop back into the situation, but either they need to come off their price tag or hope they can find a desperate team come the trading deadline.

No way I'm giving up any of the big three for Cease. He's not the kind of talent that you trade one of them for.

But Cease could be also available if they don't move him. I don't think we can really know who will be available at the trade deadline until we get closer because we don't know how the season is going to go.

That's sounds like a plant comment to make teams desperate. It's not goin to work on Elias.

The money won't buy your a championship, but it will allow you to overcome mistake and injuries easier during the regular season and that's why most of then highest payrolls are consistently good. Unless you are the Mets! lol

It's also worth noting that after his three bad starts in April, Irvin pitched to a 3.20 ERA while holding batters to a .241/.293/.395/.688 slash line over his next 64.2 IP that included 9 starts. Irvin actually was underutilized a bit last year in my opinion. For some reason he did not have much command when the season started but once he found it, he was fine. My bet is he'd be ok in a 5th starter role here in 2024, though I'd like to see better options up front that would send him to long relief.

Ok Che Guevara. You and the revolutionaries can stop beating the same drum over and over and not derail this thread about what players are going where for what why it's better for the "workers" to make money than the owners. All owners are Billionaires nowadays. No one feels sorry for them, but the last I checked, while the owners are still billionaires, many players are now tens and hundreds of millionaires. Meanwhile, regular folks have to now pay crazy amounts of money to go see baseball games or pay exorbitant cable fees to have channels they don't want or need because MLB won't allow them an in market streaming option. This is exactly why I dislike the monetary part of the off season because fans seem to focus on owners vs players while knowing they will keep dishing out more and more money for tickets and concessions. The MLB system is designed to milk the fans in order to keep billionaires billionaires and make the Harrison Bader's of the world worth $10 million. Now if you want something to really be perturbed about, the Orioles had the 10th highest average ticket price sold in 2023 while having the second lowest payroll. Meanwhile John Angelos is telling the press he'll need to raise prices to keep the Orioles young stars. So yeah, I'm not crying for any of them and as long as fans are willing to pay the prices of tickets and concessions, then I guess the system works. Personally, I limit my time at the park because it's not worth paying hundreds of dollars for tickets, food, and parking when I can watch it on my big screen TV at home.

Just a random 1 year $23.5 million contract given by the Dodgers. Nothing to see here folks. The money between the haves and have nots is certainly not getting smaller.

Lol, they are the Mets for a reason. More money than sense.