Tony-OH

Well I have made my feelings known over the Frazier deal, but to me, Elias gets a C for this offseason and that was moved up from a D before the Irvin trade. We went into this offseason hoping to get a TOR and MOO bat to add to the lineup. We got neither and will need our current young players to grow into those roles (I'm looking at you Stowers if they actually let you play everyday). But, we did end up with two decent starters in Gibson and Irvin, another good arm for the pen in Givens, and decent backup C with upside if he's healthy in McCann. I think this team could be a 83-87 win team as constructed as long as none of the young guys implode and we stay relatively injury free.

But you don't make your second highest paid player that role. If you signed Frazier to a $2 million contract knowing he will ultimately be a utility guy, ok, but they already have Vavra to fill that role for major league minimum. They have every intention of giving Frazier Odor-like playing time at 2B. Now Westburg may very well need an adjustment time as he's needed at almost every level, but at some point that needs to happen. But we've rehashed this part to death. At the end of he day, Elias felt he needed a left-handed hitting second baseman and Frazier was the guy Sig's system spit it to get. Now we'll see if they were right.

I agree 100%. I don't like how he used his resources this offseason, but I do think he's think his team is a playoff contender this year.

I do think he believes in this team and for some reason in Frazier over his internal candidates. I also believe he was given a budge well short or what he was expecting and had to make some choices during an unstable time of the offseason and he may have "panicked" a little. I think the offseason free agent market shocked him and his aversion to more than 1 or 2 year days (not sure whether that's his or concerns over budgets from ownership) hurt him in acquiring that guy at the top of the rotation, even he wasn't a real TOR. I do think this team should be better than last year with normal progression from our young players/pitchers and with the acquisitions like Gibson, Irvin, Givens and McCann, but until the Irvin trade, this offseason was looking like it got away from him a bit.

I think the reason why Frazier has touched such a nerve is because it's so out of touch with everything we thought Elias was about. He's built this great minor league system and then when he's got some guys ready to go, and he's goes out and makes a Thrift-level signing of a guy who makes a lot of money, hasn't been good for a year and half, and literally blocks a top 100 prospect who plays the same position and has over 400 PAs at AAA. Many of us thought this would be the offseason they would at least at one impact level pitcher to the mix through free agency or trade. Then Elias adds Gibson and Frazier for $18 million combined this offseason when they potentially could have had Bassitt for $21 million and Westburg at 2B for major league minimum. Nothing against Gibson who is not a bad signing for a year, but to me, Bassitt is a much better pitcher to be sitting at the top of their rotation. Next year's rotation of Bassitt, Rodriguez, Means, Irvin and Bradish/Kremer would have looked pretty damn good. No matter how you spin the Frazier signing, it's so out of left field for what this organization has been trying to do it's almost like they either thought more moves were coming and didn't materialize, or Elias is way too cautious with giving jobs to rookies out of spring training. Honestly, outside of the Frazier deal, the rest of Elias' major moves (Irvin and McCann trades, Givens and Gibson singings) made the team better then they were.

Yep, I agree with that overall. Some guys that's all they know and want to do. Of course, nowadays it's gets harder to get those coaching jobs because teams are starting to do the Orioles thing by hiring guys who have more experience with analytic and systems than professional playing experience. I think we'll potentially see that chance over time as more pro guys gets experience in the systems and are able to bring both to the table.

The Orioles are usually cautious at bringing in starters so they don't get them started too early and out of their routine as a starter. This year though, the AAA season starts on March 31st so maybe they don't mind those guys getting started a little earlier than usual which is why Povich is in for a look. Either way, Povich will most likely be an early cut and sent back to minor league camp to get his routine started. I think we may see an extra catcher or two behind the scenes, but not necessarily officially invited because that is a small amount to catch bullpens early in the year.

Well he's struck out 16 with just 3 walks in 11.2 Winter League innings so maybe they want to give him a look. I went and tried to find some video of him. The announcer at one point said, 98 MPH. The slider has nice bite at times, but man does he get barreled up on the fastball if he doesn't keep it up and has no command or control really, especially of his slider. Guess it's a nice arm to see what you can do with it so the ST invite is probably just to get him around Holt for a bit.

Cowser can play CF effectively now, but I don't think that will be a long term position. He's similar to Hays was when he came up initially. Won't kill ya, but he'll be about average or slightly below OOA out there initially. As his footspeed drops off, he'll need to move to the corner but should be good enough to play the big LF in Camden Yards for a bit before ultimately settling in at RF where his arm plays well anyways.

He was the lefty I was thinking of and wondering if he had made it through waivers. I'm assuming at this point he cleared waivers so I would imagine he would be sent to AAA and invited to spring training once everything is formally done. At least I think he can be sent to AAA. Not sure where he stands on whether he can elect free agency.

It's nice to just give him that taste of the big leagues and get him around guys like Adley and Gunnar. He'll probably get cut when minor league spring starts up so he can get ready for his season and the guys he'll be playing with.

Who else would have invited that's left-handed? Zac Lowther? After his year last year he'll need to show back up a different guy this year and they're not going to reward him with a ST invite.

I betcha Lewin Diaz just can't wait to get into spring training. No big surprises here for me though I'm a little surprised on Neustrom after the year he had last year. I might have given Haskin a look over him this spring.

And not $8 million of insurance when you literally have Urias as insurance there as well. Anyways, the key here is that we have a player who is considered widely as Top 100 prospects in all of baseball and who has over 400 PAs at AAA blocked by a guy who is what, the 2nd highest paid player on the team? Forget Frazier for a bit (I know that's hard for all of us, me included), but I think this tells us about how Elias likes to build his team. He truly believes in veteranosity despite all the data and analytics he uses so well. On top of it, I think he and Sig think they are the smartest guys in the room and want to prove it by going against the grain and doing something like they did. Lastly, I think it shows a little bit of the failure of the "move around to all infield positions" development style they've used. It was of no surprise they were going to need a 2B this year. Westburg was the most likely player that could have filled that position so why did he only play 40 games at 2B last year? Now I went back and watched a decent amount of his games at 2B and made sure to watch all of his errors and tried to find as many DPs as possible to see how he turns it from 2B. He missed a couple of catches that he should have made from throws from the left side and while he turned the DP effectively, if he's moving away from 1st base as he catches the ball there's not a lot on the throws. So for me, he's 45 level second baseman defensively right now, though I think with more time there he could be solid average. Which is completely fine since I believe his bat will play. So if it were me running the show, I'd be going into spring training with Westburg penciled into my starting 2B spot, Urias as my backup plan with Ortiz as my tertiary plan and would have felt pretty good that I upgraded over my 2022 contribution at the position. I'm thinking that Elias had plans on trading Westburg this offseason, and that plan never materialized for whatever reason. If there's no Westburg, Frazier's signing makes a little more sense though I still would not have liked him at his price tag. I betcha, and he'll never admit it for a lot of reasons, but I'd betcha a good amount if he had a do over right now as the Orioles roster sits, the Frazier signing would never have happened. I have to believe that the Frazier signing was the start of a series of signings and deals that were part of a master plan and that something went wrong. This left him with an $8 million Frazier and his major league minimum top 100 prospect who is ready on the same 40-man roster.

One other thing, I'm surprised he thought Stowers was still eligible. He was not due to his time on the 26-man roster last year.

In a way I get that sediment, but when I see a NP hang it up, especially when they are only a few years into their career, I see I young man who is realistic and ready to get on with that next step in his life. Unfortunately, some players hang around way too long and then end up in their late 20s with limited skills and perhaps limited education if they didn't go to college and now have to figure out what's next. I think believe every young man who ended up playing pro should all feel proud because they are among the best to play the game. No one can ever take that away from them, but it's always better to understand your own skill set compared to your peers and make that call earlier than later.

Let me make this clear, I don't think for a second this is an Orioles derive issue. It's a MLB issue and another black mark on how they deliver their sport.

I don't want to delve into politics other than to say there was nary a mention of Hogan is such glowing terms over the last 8 years by John Angelos. Suddenly, new Governor and he wants to heap praise when I bet Moore hasn't done as much as move into his office by now. It's just so obviously political. Peter was pretty good besides a comment here and there of donating to who he wanted to but keeping the Orioles organization apolitical. That's the way I like my sports, the Orioles, and the Hangout. I don't believe John Angelos aggrees with that and it's one more reason why this team will be better when he's no longer involved with this organization.

Good luck to the young man. Guys who understand where they really are on the prospect scene the soonest tend to go off and have success more than the ones that stick around a long time when they really know they are not good enough. I wish him nothing but the best!

Weird, this is almost like it written by someone who worked at CNN and MSNBC. Disgusting how political John Angelos will try and make the Orioles now. We all know the politics of this family, but the one thing Peter did very well was do things behind the scenes, not give verbal handjobs to the incoming Governor.

Now that is funny. Frazier really is a test of the ability for a fan to evaluate without his/her heart in their evaluation of a player. It's takes blind devotion to the ability of Elias and company to find talent when every bit of statistical information you can get your hands on on argues this was a terrible move. Particularly because they literally have a top 100 prospect who has over 400 AAA PAs ready. And even if Westburg fails, they have another top 100 prospect (on some lists) in Ortiz who we know can play GG caliber second base regardless of the bat. That's not one, but two price controlled internal options that could have filled a void that was filled by Frazier. It still boggles my mind that we have people who will defend this move and die on that hill while telling everyone that disagrees that they using hyperbole and whining. lol Can't make that kind of fandom up. Elias could have used one of his two top 100 guys at second base, and taken that $8 million and put with Gibson's money and had Bassitt if he was willing to three years. Who here would not rather have a rotation of: 1. Bassitt 2. Kremer 3. Bradish 4. Irvin 5. Rodriguez With a starting lineup up of: 1. Henderson- SS (yes I'm starting him there at the beginning of his career because Urias brings more value than Mateo) 2. Rustchman - C 3. Santander - DH 4. Mountcastle - 1B 5. Stowers - RF 6. Hays - RF 7. Mullins - CF 8. Westburg - 2B 9. Urias - 3B Sign me up for that!!!! When Mateo plays he goes to SS and Henderson moves over to 3B. This could have happened with the same money invested as this year's team.

No, only those who choose to see things in black and white, good and bad would come up with that assessment. GMs are good at different things and not all are good at everything. Elias has been able to set up an organization that drafts and develop's (still some questions here when it comes to positionally playing players) and how to use advanced analytics to help players prepare before games. He has not proven that he can take that core talent, augment it with top tier outside talent through trades or FA signings, and make it a World Series contender. Until he does so, all we have is hope that is unusual way of adding veteranosity, in need of a comeback players at positions where his prospects are ready to play, will work out. Now, there are people who believe Elias walks on water and anyone who dares challenge the almighty Oz should be attacked an ostracized. I dare suggest they may find the Facebook page a better place to share those views because there is a heavy optimist (can I use that or does that offend people) crowd there. Personally, I like some of the things Elias has done this offseason like the trade for Irvin, the decent contracts for Gibson and Givens, and the McCann trade was worth a shot. But the Frazier signing to an $8 million contract was unnecessary and blocks a legitimately ready 2B in Westburg. When a top 100 prospect has 413 PAs, and plays a position of need, teams don't typically go out and get $8 million players who haven't been good in a year and half at the major league level to block them. Does this make Elias dumb? No, it makes this decision dumb. I view Elias holistically and I'll cheer the good things he does, but will call out the head scratchers, and not try and make ridiculous excuses for them. Westburg is ready for the major leagues. He needs major league time to make adjustments that he can only make at the major league level. He's going to play at 24-years old this coming year.

I would be very, very surprised if Povich is giving bulk innings at the major league level in 2023 for various reasons. First, the Orioles have a pretty decent depth at starting pitching especially if you consider that Means should be back in the second half. Wells, Voth and Watkins will most likely not make the rotation and while it's pretty apparently McDaniel has given up on Hall as a starter (Not saying he's wrong here) I do think Hall would be before Povich as well in the pecking order, particularly since he's on the 40-man roster and Povich is not. Now saying all that, I do like Povich but I am surprised at how highly McDaniel likes him. Personally, he's a got a bit more to prove for me on the mound before putting him that high, but hey, sometimes as an evaluator you just like a guy more than others.

You have to appreciate these young men investing in themselves at driveline. You would think that major league teams would invest in driveline technologies and coaching and open this kind of training up to all of their pitching prospects in the offseason.

What part of I don't want to rehash this stupid argument did you not get? I just brought it up because of the conversation about Westburg and about how STUPID it was to block him when he's ready by every indicator but Elias and company. We've exhausted this conversation and it doesn't need to be repeated. This thread is about the top 100 prospects. Now if you wanted to make your point about how Westburg clearly is not ready to make 2B and how thankful you are that the Orioles signed Frazier for $8 MILLION dollars, that is in context of the thread. Otherwise, back to our top 100 prospects talk.