Tony-OH

Choksantander pops up again with RISP. I'm sure he'll hit a meaningless home run late in the game.

Everyone needs to stay away from the personal attacks while debating. While you may like or not like another poster, at the end of the day, if you choose to engage with them do it on the merits of the statements, not on the person. Also, let's stick to the subject at hand in these posts. Lastly, there is a ignore feature if someone bothers you. I recommend using it if it's going cause you to attack someone personally. I've seen people with "strong opinions" on here but they don't break the rules. If you believe they break a rule, feel free to report the post so we can evaluate and take action if needed. Of note though, do not report someone because you just don't like them or their post. They have to break a rule. There's room for many personalities and opinions on this board. Let's remember that the differences is what makes it more entertaining.

Most evaluators don't get paid "tons of money" unless you are talking about Elias and Sig. Second, Holliday is not a five tool player because his arm is below average. Now, could it be because his elbow has been bothering him for awhile, perhaps, but no evaluator would have watched Jackson here or in the minors and said he was a five-tool player. Let's stay away from the personal attacks too.

Just wanted to clear up once again I meant that explosive "1st step twitchiness" is what I did not see from Jackson while playing SS. Just want it on record that I've said multiple times that Holliday is an excellent athlete.

Actually, I said that I thought Gunnar would grow off shortstop, not that he couldn't play there. He did develop into a much more consistent shortstop than I thought he would be. That was good development.

I don't think many people don't understand that at all. The big difference was that we thought Gunnar might outgrow SS, but instead we've found out he's just an extraordinary athlete that for now, has no reason to move off SS. Holliday, while he certainly can get stronger and grow into more man strength, which I think he will, is not the same physical specimen. He's a smallish kind of guy who doesn't have a lot of physical projection left. I mean, it's not out of the question that Holliday could develop into a better hitter than Henderson OBP wise and average wise, but I doubt he's ever going to hit for the same power nor will he bring the same defensive value while he stays on the dirt. Jackson is going to end up a very good MLB baseball player.

Thanks. It was more speculation by me that it COULD be next year, but we know some form is coming at some point.

I'll be honest and say that's not my specialty and not what I really focus on. I would say though that the starter would need to have at least 3 years of control after this season and be considered a #2 with ACE tendencies. I haven't started to look on who would be available, but it's probably not many that would fit that bill. Which is why I don't think Holliday, Mayo or Basallo will be traded.

Mainly because after year or two in AAA, MLB has been adopting things like the pitch clock, bigger bases, limited disengagements, etc. I do think they are worried that offense will spike like in AAA though. I kind of like the umps calling pitches, but the batter and catcher getting so many challenges a game. It was pretty quick and put a little strategy into the game. Either way, with Holliday's 70 grade eye, he would benefit.

Westburg struggles going to his right on balls at 2B and doesn't have the arm strength to make up for it. He has been solid at 3B at this year which always amazes me that when Urias plays 3B, Westburg moves over there unless it's to give him more experience knowing Mayo is coming. I didn't honestly realize how bad Westburg has played at 2B according to both OAA and DRS. Still, I'd move him to 2B and play Mayo at 3B.

Nice to see him hitting well and obviously healthy. Plus he's showing a little extra base pop which was something that was always missing from him in pro ball. Certainly worth keeping an eye on him and seeing how fast they will get him to more age appropriate players in AA.

On this promotion we agree. It's time for Coby Mayo to be playing everyday 3B in Baltimore.

Oh, I also saw a Jackson vs Henderson "debate" in this thread somewhere. While I think Holliday is going to be a very good player, and yes, he out produced Henderson at the same levels at a younger age, but Henderson is a physical specimen/oddity due to size, athleticism, speed and arm. He's truly a 5-tool player and is the kind of player you build your franchise around. I see more of a solid average to above average major leaguer in Holliday when I look at the tools vs a generational talent. If I had to choose between the two, it's not even close who I would choose, but that's not a hit on Holliday, but more of shout out to the kind of talent we're watching with Gunnar. I'll be honest, he very well may be the most athletic superstar the Orioles have ever had. If Holliday can make himself a quality second baseman or maybe even transition to CF, he's going to be a very good player at the major league level at the top of a lineup as an on base machine. If the automatic strike zone gets adopted in some form at the major league level, and I believe it will be next year, he becomes even more dangerous.

Good Lord, somewhere I lost track of this thread only to see it derailed into 10 others subjects. 1) Please keep on the subject of Jackson Holliday 2) My thoughts on Jackson Holliday's "Athleticism." First off, Holliday has very good speed, has made some very good plays defensively while on the move, and is playing professional baseball with the best in the world, that in in of itself makes him above average athletically. Now, saying that, he's not an extreme quick twitch guy and he doesn't have that explosive first step you'd typically want in a shortstop. That combined with his below average arm was why I pretty quickly concluded that shortstop would be a stretch for him without additional physical development. 3) The arm woes could very well be from him trying to improve his arm strength this offseason. I don't know what his routine was, but watching him lob balls around the infield tells me he was saving his arm and was kind of treating it with "kid gloves" which suggests he was not 100%. How much that has affected his hitting, I don't know, but his domination by major league pitchers was most likely not because of elbow discomfort. 4) I've said for awhile that Jackson Holliday is untouchable along with Basallo and Mayo, and I still think it would take a ton of a return that would include controllable players before I would consider moving him, but I'm starting to think he might be the guy that could get an impact return that I'd be willing to move. Now why would I be willing to move him? Quite simply because I would have no issue with an infield of Mayo at 3B and Westburg at 2B. Now, before people overreact here and say I'm down on Holliday, I'm not. I still think he's going to end up a very high OBP hitter with some pop and would look very good on top of this lineup one day. At no point do you give him away and he's certainly not traded for just a rental for this year, but I would listen.

That was a 1-2, middle-middle curveball that he did absolutely mash. Mayo is one of the smartest hitters, but major league pitchers are typically more unconventional in their pitch selections down in counts and of course make less mistakes. I have zero doubts that Mayo can hit curveballs if they're mistakes, it just the pitch group that he struggles with more than others, which is not uncommon. Lots of major league hitters have poor stats against breaking balls or offspeed. I didn't mean to suggest Mayo has a "hole" with off speed, just that it's what major league pitchers will attack him with initially to see how he reacts. I do know if they make a mistake with a fastball he's going to do a lot of damage. Either way, he's ready to be playing in the major leagues now.

This is a mix of hitting two really hot teams, our pitching attrition, and just some bad luck. Everything is not going their way right now. Sure, I think the rotation needs some help after losing Bradish, Means, Wells and Kremer and yes, Elias should have done more this offseason to sure up this pen (I was saying that all offseason and through spring), but when the team pitches good it doesn't hit and when they score a bunch, their pitching stinks. This team was not going to continue on a 105-win pace with their pitching injuries, but luckily, the Yankees have not been playing great either after being lights out for awhile (while the Orioles were red-hot). No this team is not going to go into a giant tailspin where they end up under .500 and yes, they will eventually break out of this. We saw in the schedule this was a tough stretch of opponents and lack of off days and it's just kind of caught up just as they hit two teams getting hot. They're going to be fine when it comes to making the playoffs. Now, do they have a deep playoff caliber rotation and bullpen? No, I think they need to make moves, move that are going cost some players people don't want to see go, but when you have never drafted and developed a major league pitcher in 5 years of drafting, this is what your strategy was devised for. Develop the bats, trade/acquire for the arms. Now it's time to see if Elias is able to fulfill his strategy.

I'm talking about tonight. I know the offense is not the problem. They scored 8 runs but they sucked tonight with RISP because they were not taking good PAs when it mattered. This is a game thread. We're talking about a game.

Truth, when it's going bad, it's going bad.

And only one with RISP, which was my entire point.

Elias knew that he needed at least two impact relievers and he went out and just got Kimbrel. Cano was due for regression, Coulombe was due but got hurt instead. Either way, he did not do his job correctly this offseason because he's too timid. I know this team is in a funk, and they will be fine, but the bullpen being a mess is on Elias because only the injury to Coulombe could not be seen.

Home runs or nothing. They don't have professional at bats when they have RISP. they are all looking to drink out of the stupid homer hose thing or whatever instead of working pitchers and putting together good PAs to get runners in. Instead we see Santander popping out like a rookie then hits a solo home er when nobody on down by three. Yay! Santander can take his empty homers and more on for all I care after this season.

The pitching is a shitshow right now. The attrition and regression has occurred at the same time. The regression is on Elias. The attrition is bad luck.

But that could be a foul ball. We just don't know.

Cowser you're going to get changups.

Lol, Cleveland relievers work 5 out of 8 games and look like All-Stars. Orioles relieves work back to back games and turn into pumpkins.